The Beneficial & Great Accomplishments of The Obama Administration

[Mr. Hall]

He likes to see himself as important and changes that no one wants to debate with him to nobody wants to discuss things with anybody....he's a legend in his own mind!

Mr. Hall basically has one function: to come on this board every few months and tear his robes in shock that Christians believe Christian stuff.

He is less useful than his former avatar, who at least was entertaining:

"Christians?"  "Christian Stuff"?  Here?  Haven't seen much of either of those in these spaces.

But thanks for bringing back Shemp.  He's always been my favorite.

$

 

[Ransom]

Haven't seen much of either of those in these spaces.

Far as I can tell, you wouldn't know.

 

[Mr. Hall]

but that;s the problem........ part of the bloomberg campaign.. and also the legislation recommended by obama ..included a list of weapons currently legal that they wanted to ban and make illegal..........and it just so happens the weapons that were on those lists are the very same weapons the american public went out en mass to obtain when it became evident obama wanted to ban them....... and ...contrary to what obama wants to believe... lobby efforts by the nra actually had very little do with the derailment of his gun control initiatives ....... it was instead realization on the part of the congress that the gun buying spree in america in reaction to obamas rhetoric was happening in the first place....

but more importantly they also recognized it wasn;t all or even mostly gun fanatics out there buying those guns.....  most of them were citizens who had never owned a gun before in their life but who were determined they weren;t going to let an oppressive government deprive them of an inalienable right before they even got a chance to exercise it...... that is what happened here in hawaii....

and any politician who still believes bloomberg and his coalition of mayors will win in the end is just one more politician who doesn;t know the history of the country he pretends to represent......  the nra and the gun lobby did not elect all those republicans entirely by themselves last tuesday....  .... and all of their members put together couldn;t have come up with all the money spent on guns and ammunition in this country since december of 2013........ we now have more heavily armed households in this country than ever before..... and a newly elected congress that is comfortable keeping them that way.......

Poppycock.

No offense but do you have any references for this garbage or did you just make it up?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/160085/americans-back-obama-proposals-address-gun-violence.aspx



$

 

[Holy Mole]

Oblahblah still has his loyal fart-for-brains like Mr Hall. That's a sort of accomplishment isn't it?

It's not easy to teach a dumb dog to fetch.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Bob Hope, Zombies and Democrats

 

[HeDied4U]

Bob Hope, Zombies and Democrats

LOL!! Perfect description of democrats.

 

[Mr. Hall]

you guys really didn;t learn anything from last weeks election did you?..........

anybody who would put as much stock as you seem to in a gallup poll on gun control ...taken 1 month after sandy hook ... when the obama administration was doing all it could to stoke the emotional flames ignited by that incident and keep them burning... is the one with a head full of poppycock.......

in fact.... anyone who would believe a polling organization like gallup in the year 2014....that was fined 10.5 million dollars in 2013 by the united states department of justice for violations of the false claims act and the procurement integrity act is living in a world saturated by poppycock...... does an organizations integrity and reputation for honesty mean anything to you?.......

gallup might have indeed been the source for reliable information back in the day...... and when it;s founder was still alive........but not any more......... today they are merely riding the wave of what they use to be.......... much like obama still trying to pretend he can ride the wave of how americans use to feel....... or how he was able at one time to manipulate them into feeling........ 

but to answer your question....... no.... i did not make anything up...... it;s a known and well recorded fact that gun sales in the united states always increase during democratic presidencies........ and the record boom in both gun and ammunition sales that has been going for the last 2 years..... peaking earlier this past summer... is also well recorded........ even liberal rags reported on it though they also attempted to blame unfair demonization of obama by the gun lobby for the cause of it........

and i already told several times on this forum what i witnessed happening myself... right here in my own state......and i know what happened in other states due to people i am related to that live in those states....... i know many people here in hawaii who never owned guns before last year and yet today own some of the most lethal weapons sold............ but what i don;t know is the name of anybody that was ever questioned by one of these "gallup" type polls and asked if they agree with obamas guns control proposals..... do you know any?.......... have they ever asked you your opinion?.......how many times did they come back to you and ask you again?.........

1.  Last week's election:  This statement makes no sense.  Guns were barely an issue in the election.  Jobs, health care, the deficit, education, security, and immigration were the major concerns.

http://www.people-press.org/2014/05/05/the-2014-midterm-congressional-vote-top-issues/


2.  Gallup poll:  Grasping at straws.  Common amongst gundums.  Although support for strengthening existing gun laws overall has supposedly declined after peaking following the Newtown shootings, support for individual gun control measures remains high suggesting that the average Joe is not very familiar with existing laws.  For example, recent polls have found that 90 per cent of Americans, including gun owners, support expanding background checks to require them for all sales including retail, gun show and private sales.  Of course a Senate bill to do just that failed to pass due to a Republican filibuster.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/211321-poll-most-gun-owners-support-universal-background-checks
http://www.gallup.com/poll/162083/americans-wanted-gun-background-checks-pass-senate.aspx

And a recent Rasmussen poll showed that 59% of Americans favor a ban on assault weapons.  Rasmussen is a conservative leaning outfit.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/january_2014/59_favor_assault_weapons_ban_18_want_handgun_ban_too

An Ipsos/Reuters poll conducted in April 2012 found that 69% of Americans favor limiting the number of firearms a person may purchase in a given time frame.

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news-polls/pressrelease.aspx?id=5586

Even the Supreme Court is getting in on the act:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/court-agrees-with-ban-on-straw-purchases-of-guns/2014/06/16/b19d0b2e-f588-11e3-a606-946fd632f9f1_story.html


3.  Gallup fine:  Grasping at straws again.  This matter had nothing to do with Gallup's polling protocol or polling integrity.  It concerned what was essentially a contract billing dispute.  Gallup settled but admitted no wrongdoing.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/gallup-doj-fine-94177.html


4.  Unsubstantiated gibberish: 


5.  I too saw television reports showing people fearfully rushing out to buy guns.  So what?  Every society has its share of morons.  Some are stupid enough to think that Obama wants to take away their guns.  Others are plagued with some kind of goofy, late eighteenth century mentality wherein they want to be sure to have assault weapons to protect themselves from a tyrannical government.  But the fact remains that most Americans support reasonable gun control measures.


6.  Gundums hate polls.  That's because polls rarely support their positions.


A brief commercial before I depart:  Neither President Obama or the vast majority of gun control advocates have any interest in banning guns or outlawing gun ownership.  And I myself support the Second Amendment.  Although I don't own any firearms now I want to keep the right to do so if I feel the need.  But I am also more than willing to accept reasonable restrictions on that right for the common good.


Well, that's it for me.  I learned long ago that arguing with a gundum is akin to reasoning with an adolescent.  Fruitless.

Aloha.

$

 

[qwerty]

Assault weapons are all ready banned for private ownership.

 

[qwerty]

Assault weapons are all ready banned for private ownership.

true.... the real assault weapons.... military grade weapons used by the military are banned........ but the legislation that was introduced by obama and bloomberg described "assault type" weapons.... and under their definitions  it included all civilian versions of military weapons .. "look alike" weapons...and in some cases even semi automatic hunting weapons never used by the military........ in most cases i agreed with them...... but it;s a little too late now.......... like i said before one of my friends actually owns a weapon that was on obamas hit list of guns to ban...... 2 years ago she didn;t know the difference in a machine gun and a muzzle loader.... but today she owns an ar-15 bushmaster...... and a glock 9mm.... she ordered them through a local gun store and waited almost a year for delivery due to high demand..... like many she attributes her new interest in owning guns to obamas efforts to ban them......... and there are thousands of other new gun owners here just like her

So more like the "Assault Weapons Ban" that was put into effect in 1994 and expired in 2004?

 

[qwerty]

The Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 was futile....again, more legislation from a government that can not get anything right.

In 2004, when the ban expired, the Department of Justice concluded, "the ban's effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement. [Banned weapons] were rarely used in gun crimes even before the ban.1"

FBI stats show that in 2011, 323 murders were committed using a rifle of any kind (not just "assault rifles"), 496 were committed with hammers and clubs, 1,694 with an edged weapon (Knife)2.

 

[T-Bone]

you guys really didn;t learn anything from last weeks election did you?..........

anybody who would put as much stock as you seem to in a gallup poll on gun control ...taken 1 month after sandy hook ... when the obama administration was doing all it could to stoke the emotional flames ignited by that incident and keep them burning... is the one with a head full of poppycock.......

in fact.... anyone who would believe a polling organization like gallup in the year 2014....that was fined 10.5 million dollars in 2013 by the united states department of justice for violations of the false claims act and the procurement integrity act is living in a world saturated by poppycock...... does an organizations integrity and reputation for honesty mean anything to you?.......

gallup might have indeed been the source for reliable information back in the day...... and when it;s founder was still alive........but not any more......... today they are merely riding the wave of what they use to be.......... much like obama still trying to pretend he can ride the wave of how americans use to feel....... or how he was able at one time to manipulate them into feeling........ 

but to answer your question....... no.... i did not make anything up...... it;s a known and well recorded fact that gun sales in the united states always increase during democratic presidencies........ and the record boom in both gun and ammunition sales that has been going for the last 2 years..... peaking earlier this past summer... is also well recorded........ even liberal rags reported on it though they also attempted to blame unfair demonization of obama by the gun lobby for the cause of it........

and i already told several times on this forum what i witnessed happening myself... right here in my own state......and i know what happened in other states due to people i am related to that live in those states....... i know many people here in hawaii who never owned guns before last year and yet today own some of the most lethal weapons sold............ but what i don;t know is the name of anybody that was ever questioned by one of these "gallup" type polls and asked if they agree with obamas guns control proposals..... do you know any?.......... have they ever asked you your opinion?.......how many times did they come back to you and ask you again?.........

1.  Last week's election:  This statement makes no sense.  Guns were barely an issue in the election.  Jobs, health care, the deficit, education, security, and immigration were the major concerns.

http://www.people-press.org/2014/05/05/the-2014-midterm-congressional-vote-top-issues/


2.  Gallup poll:  Grasping at straws.  Common amongst gundums.  Although support for strengthening existing gun laws overall has supposedly declined after peaking following the Newtown shootings, support for individual gun control measures remains high suggesting that the average Joe is not very familiar with existing laws.  For example, recent polls have found that 90 per cent of Americans, including gun owners, support expanding background checks to require them for all sales including retail, gun show and private sales.  Of course a Senate bill to do just that failed to pass due to a Republican filibuster.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/211321-poll-most-gun-owners-support-universal-background-checks
http://www.gallup.com/poll/162083/americans-wanted-gun-background-checks-pass-senate.aspx

And a recent Rasmussen poll showed that 59% of Americans favor a ban on assault weapons.  Rasmussen is a conservative leaning outfit.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/january_2014/59_favor_assault_weapons_ban_18_want_handgun_ban_too

An Ipsos/Reuters poll conducted in April 2012 found that 69% of Americans favor limiting the number of firearms a person may purchase in a given time frame.

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news-polls/pressrelease.aspx?id=5586

Even the Supreme Court is getting in on the act:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/court-agrees-with-ban-on-straw-purchases-of-guns/2014/06/16/b19d0b2e-f588-11e3-a606-946fd632f9f1_story.html


3.  Gallup fine:  Grasping at straws again.  This matter had nothing to do with Gallup's polling protocol or polling integrity.  It concerned what was essentially a contract billing dispute.  Gallup settled but admitted no wrongdoing.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/gallup-doj-fine-94177.html


4.  Unsubstantiated gibberish: 


5.  I too saw television reports showing people fearfully rushing out to buy guns.  So what?  Every society has its share of morons.  Some are stupid enough to think that Obama wants to take away their guns.  Others are plagued with some kind of goofy, late eighteenth century mentality wherein they want to be sure to have assault weapons to protect themselves from a tyrannical government.  But the fact remains that most Americans support reasonable gun control measures.


6.  Gundums hate polls.  That's because polls rarely support their positions.


A brief commercial before I depart:  Neither President Obama or the vast majority of gun control advocates have any interest in banning guns or outlawing gun ownership.  And I myself support the Second Amendment.  Although I don't own any firearms now I want to keep the right to do so if I feel the need.  But I am also more than willing to accept reasonable restrictions on that right for the common good.


Well, that's it for me.  I learned long ago that arguing with a gundum is akin to reasoning with an adolescent.  Fruitless.

Aloha.

$

Translation....got my butt handed to me, so I am taking my ball and going home!

 

[Holy Mole]

you guys really didn;t learn anything from last weeks election did you?..........

anybody who would put as much stock as you seem to in a gallup poll on gun control ...taken 1 month after sandy hook ... when the obama administration was doing all it could to stoke the emotional flames ignited by that incident and keep them burning... is the one with a head full of poppycock.......

in fact.... anyone who would believe a polling organization like gallup in the year 2014....that was fined 10.5 million dollars in 2013 by the united states department of justice for violations of the false claims act and the procurement integrity act is living in a world saturated by poppycock...... does an organizations integrity and reputation for honesty mean anything to you?.......

gallup might have indeed been the source for reliable information back in the day...... and when it;s founder was still alive........but not any more......... today they are merely riding the wave of what they use to be.......... much like obama still trying to pretend he can ride the wave of how americans use to feel....... or how he was able at one time to manipulate them into feeling........ 

but to answer your question....... no.... i did not make anything up...... it;s a known and well recorded fact that gun sales in the united states always increase during democratic presidencies........ and the record boom in both gun and ammunition sales that has been going for the last 2 years..... peaking earlier this past summer... is also well recorded........ even liberal rags reported on it though they also attempted to blame unfair demonization of obama by the gun lobby for the cause of it........

and i already told several times on this forum what i witnessed happening myself... right here in my own state......and i know what happened in other states due to people i am related to that live in those states....... i know many people here in hawaii who never owned guns before last year and yet today own some of the most lethal weapons sold............ but what i don;t know is the name of anybody that was ever questioned by one of these "gallup" type polls and asked if they agree with obamas guns control proposals..... do you know any?.......... have they ever asked you your opinion?.......how many times did they come back to you and ask you again?.........

1.  Last week's election:  This statement makes no sense.  Guns were barely an issue in the election.  Jobs, health care, the deficit, education, security, and immigration were the major concerns.

http://www.people-press.org/2014/05/05/the-2014-midterm-congressional-vote-top-issues/


2.  Gallup poll:  Grasping at straws.  Common amongst gundums.  Although support for strengthening existing gun laws overall has supposedly declined after peaking following the Newtown shootings, support for individual gun control measures remains high suggesting that the average Joe is not very familiar with existing laws.  For example, recent polls have found that 90 per cent of Americans, including gun owners, support expanding background checks to require them for all sales including retail, gun show and private sales.  Of course a Senate bill to do just that failed to pass due to a Republican filibuster.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/211321-poll-most-gun-owners-support-universal-background-checks
http://www.gallup.com/poll/162083/americans-wanted-gun-background-checks-pass-senate.aspx

And a recent Rasmussen poll showed that 59% of Americans favor a ban on assault weapons.  Rasmussen is a conservative leaning outfit.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/january_2014/59_favor_assault_weapons_ban_18_want_handgun_ban_too

An Ipsos/Reuters poll conducted in April 2012 found that 69% of Americans favor limiting the number of firearms a person may purchase in a given time frame.

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news-polls/pressrelease.aspx?id=5586

Even the Supreme Court is getting in on the act:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/court-agrees-with-ban-on-straw-purchases-of-guns/2014/06/16/b19d0b2e-f588-11e3-a606-946fd632f9f1_story.html


3.  Gallup fine:  Grasping at straws again.  This matter had nothing to do with Gallup's polling protocol or polling integrity.  It concerned what was essentially a contract billing dispute.  Gallup settled but admitted no wrongdoing.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/gallup-doj-fine-94177.html


4.  Unsubstantiated gibberish: 


5.  I too saw television reports showing people fearfully rushing out to buy guns.  So what?  Every society has its share of morons.  Some are stupid enough to think that Obama wants to take away their guns.  Others are plagued with some kind of goofy, late eighteenth century mentality wherein they want to be sure to have assault weapons to protect themselves from a tyrannical government.  But the fact remains that most Americans support reasonable gun control measures.


6.  Gundums hate polls.  That's because polls rarely support their positions.


A brief commercial before I depart:  Neither President Obama or the vast majority of gun control advocates have any interest in banning guns or outlawing gun ownership.  And I myself support the Second Amendment.  Although I don't own any firearms now I want to keep the right to do so if I feel the need.  But I am also more than willing to accept reasonable restrictions on that right for the common good.


Well, that's it for me.  I learned long ago that arguing with a gundum is akin to reasoning with an adolescent.  Fruitless.

Aloha.

$

Translation....got my butt handed to me, so I am taking my ball and going home!

true but I doubt his butt fits into his hands.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Assault weapons are all ready banned for private ownership.

There's no such thing as an assault weapon.  There are weapons.  And there is assault with a weapon.  And the weapon could be anything, including a hammer. 

 

[qwerty]

Quote from: aleshanee on November 15, 2014, 03:24:22 PM

for the record i;m just as opposed to police departments being armed with military hardware and carrying around weapons banned for the average populace as i am opposed to citizens being armed with ar-15s........

Couple points I want to make regarding this....

The militarization of local police is a result of federal legislatures making stupid decision.  They "think" they are doing something smart, when in reality are doing something very dumb.  Having some personal experience with DRMO, it is a nightmare, especially for small and mid-size departments.  Let's give them all this equipment they have sitting around, it is generally worn out and in most cases useless to us anymore!!!! They give them equipment that is expensive to maintain, expensive to operate, is used rarely if ever (which for Diesel is a nightmare).  When it comes time to fuel them up, change tire(s), repair a transmission....the departments realize they have made a very bad decision taking this equipment.  The rifles turn out to be a pretty good deal since they are built well, but must be inventoried and also returned when you are done with them.  Anyone doing anything with the government can attest to the quagmire of documentation and fees required to get this equipment returned.  In two years, the departments that have MRAP's will not be able to get them sent back fast enough.  Not only a PR nightmare, but a money pit as well.

As far as citizens having AR's.....  The more the merrier. My personal feeling is that WACO and Ruby Ridge were eye-opening events to the Alphabet Agencies that they can not just come in as they see fit without repercussions.   An armed citizenry is not just a defense against burglars. 

The myth behind citizens having AR's is also mainly because no one puts any thought behind their statements....aka "The Biden Factor".  A legal AR magazine (post ban) will hold 30 rounds or less....that is putting 30 projectiles of .223 diameter ammo down range.  A 12ga with 7 shells of #4 buckshot will put 168 projectiles of equal (actually greater) size down range.  One of those guns they want to ban......

There may be a day (and it will happen sooner that later if the current political climate continues) where the role of government may be a little more pro-active......

Someone said something previously about this not being an election about gun rights...... of the 251 races, NRA backed candidates won 229.

 

[Holy Mole]

Assault weapons are all ready banned for private ownership.

There's no such thing as an assault weapon.  There are weapons.  And there is assault with a weapon.  And the weapon could be anything, including a hammer. 

Except a "assault weapon" is designed to "assault" whereas a hammer was designed for another use as was a baseball bat, kitchen knife or rolling pin. The difference between me and a Mr Hall type is that I believe there is a time and a place for all of the above.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Assault weapons are all ready banned for private ownership.

There's no such thing as an assault weapon.  There are weapons.  And there is assault with a weapon.  And the weapon could be anything, including a hammer. 

Except a "assault weapon" is designed to "assault" whereas a hammer was designed for another use as is a baseball bat, kitchen knife or rolling pin. The difference between me and a Mr Hall type is that I believe there is a time and a place for all of the above.

Okay, valid point, the hammer is not designed to be a weapon. 

But the 2nd amendment is meant for our protection against a tyrannical government.  Which means we would need weapons with equal firepower.  Yes, and that not only means automatic weapons, it means tanks, fighter jets, etc.  Now, I know it's impractical, illegal (and too expensive) for people to buy most (probably 99%) of military-grade weapons.  But, academically speaking, that would still be covered by the intent of the 2nd amendment.  So I don't see the point of making automatic weapons illegal. 

Yes, I know some people see the state militia, national guard, etc., to be the fulfillment of the 2nd amendment, especially because of the phrase "well-regulated militia".  But it wasn't written that way.  It doesn't say, "the right of the people in the well-regulated militia", it says, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state [or, because of the need for a well-regulated militia] the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". 

It also doesn't say, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms designed to be suitable for hunting and sports and home protection".

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

After a public shooting, the liberals always want to take guns away from the people who didn't do it....

 

[qwerty]

The AR, which is in the sights of Bloomberg and his ilk, is still a poor choice to go after.  You are correct, it's design is not intuitive for close quarters, semi-auto for civilian and law enforcement, is made more for open combat at distances greater than what a shotgun optimally designed for.  If any of the offenders in any recent mass shooting (theaters, classrooms, cafeterias, etc) had used a shotgun with #4 or 00, there would most likely be greater death and casualties despite having a larger magazine capacity and design of the AR.  The attack with the highest casualty rate in the US involved neither though....

My personal opinion is that the government would like to remove the AR (including the M16 and M4) from the hands of the civilians as well as some law enforcement. Most being mil-spec it creates an almost level playing field when combined with gorilla warfare. Our government has no qualms about sending guns they find "illegal" to Mexico, then will come and take "legal" guns from away from border patrol officers.

 

[Holy Mole]

Quote from: aleshanee on November 15, 2014, 03:24:22 PM

for the record i;m just as opposed to police departments being armed with military hardware and carrying around weapons banned for the average populace as i am opposed to citizens being armed with ar-15s........

Couple points I want to make regarding this....

The militarization of local police is a result of federal legislatures making stupid decision.  They "think" they are doing something smart, when in reality are doing something very dumb.  Having some personal experience with DRMO, it is a nightmare, especially for small and mid-size departments.  Let's give them all this equipment they have sitting around, it is generally worn out and in most cases useless to us anymore!!!! They give them equipment that is expensive to maintain, expensive to operate, is used rarely if ever (which for Diesel is a nightmare).  When it comes time to fuel them up, change tire(s), repair a transmission....the departments realize they have made a very bad decision taking this equipment.  The rifles turn out to be a pretty good deal since they are built well, but must be inventoried and also returned when you are done with them.  Anyone doing anything with the government can attest to the quagmire of documentation and fees required to get this equipment returned.  In two years, the departments that have MRAP's will not be able to get them sent back fast enough.  Not only a PR nightmare, but a money pit as well.

As far as citizens having AR's.....  The more the merrier. My personal feeling is that WACO and Ruby Ridge were eye-opening events to the Alphabet Agencies that they can not just come in as they see fit without repercussions.  An armed citizenry is not just a defense against burglars.

like i said before.... i don;t believe the police should be armed with anything... or any weapon.... that is not also legal for the average law abiding citizen to carry..... and i believe there should be distinct differences between the police and the military....... everything from their training to their philosophy and scope of practice should be different........... one is used in a time of war to defend the country and deliver death to our enemies using the concept of search and destroy..... the other is used perpetually to defend the law abiding citizen and promote the peace through the concept of protect and serve....though both are in actuality fighting to preserve the peace only one is called a peace officer...... and only one still has "protect and serve" emblazoned on it;s vehicles.... .... mixing and overlapping the 2 jobs or combing the duties of both into one armed and empowered individual is a recipe for disaster..... as well as tyranny...... the army and it;s tactics should never be used on u;s; soil except to fight against a foreign army that has invaded us......... but that;s probably a whole other subject for a different discussion......

The myth behind citizens having AR's is also mainly because no one puts any thought behind their statements....aka "The Biden Factor".  A legal AR magazine (post ban) will hold 30 rounds or less....that is putting 30 projectiles of .223 diameter ammo down range.  A 12ga with 7 shells of #4 buckshot will put 168 projectiles of equal (actually greater) size down range.  One of those guns they want to ban......

i have no idea what biden was thinking.....  but the grain weight of the nato 5.56 projectile and rem .223 is at least double the weight of the #4 buckshot pellet......(55 grains for .223/5.56 vrs 20.8 grains for the #4 buckshot pellet).....  and whereas the 5.56 or .223 is a copper jacketed spin stablized conical bullet with an effective range of 400 yards..... the #4 round lead buckshot pellet does not even come close........ even in combination with the other pellets in each 12 gauge shell.. number 4 buckshot only has an effective range of around 40 yards........ and even the 00 buckshot pellet......which approaches but still falls short of the grain weight of a 5.56 or 223 round.....(53.8 grains for a single 00 buckshot pellet).... only has an effective range of 100 yards under the best of circumstances...... it can no doubt kill at ranges further than that..... but if the downrange lethality of the 12 gauge shotgun was even close to that of a rifle chambered for the 5.56 or 223 the worlds armies would be equipped with shotguns rather than assault rifles.....

ballistics and gunshot wounds was one of the things i studied years ago in preparation for medical school..... (back when i thought i was going to be a trauma surgeon)....... and i learned from first hand observation of cadavers and also in-service done at emergency rooms that when it comes to close range assaults both a 12 gauge shotgun...(regardless of it;s load).... and a 223 round... (regardless of what type rifle fired it)... can leave it;s victim dead as fried chicken........ and if the rifle firing the 223 or 5.56 has a 1 in 14 twist in the barrel rather than a 1 in 7 or 1 in 9 then that lethality is compounded with devastating cavitation inside the body that literally makes jello of the internal organs......

no doubt at close range a shotgun makes a bigger mess but it;s the velocity of the 223 (which is around 3000 feet per second) that makes it just as lethal at any range...... the velocity alone of the .223/5.56 can cause internal cavitation greater than the small diameter of the entrance wound would indicate........... and yet combined with a 1 in 14 twist barrel it becomes unstable so that once it;s hits a semi-solid object like the human body it no longer maintains it;s spin and begins to tumble and fragment... causing even more internal damage and cavitation..... and the .223/5.56 maintains that lethality all the way out to it;s effective range...... which is basically whatever distance a shooter is able to effectively aim it........ 300 yards is average for skilled shooter......... but even in the hands of an expert hitting something at 300 yards with a shotgun and any kind of buckshot would be more chance and luck than intention........ and with # 4 buckshot much of the lethal energy would be lost...

but still....... a shotgun really is better for home defense than a rifle of any kind simply based on the greater tendency of rifles to over penetrate and exit the target thus putting innocent people downrange in danger.......... but all that aside .... my first choice of home defense weapon is a baseball bat and really good night vision... ...... but then again i don;t get much choice....... 

There may be a day (and it will happen sooner that later if the current political climate continues) where the role of government may be a little more pro-active......

Someone said something previously about this not being an election about gun rights...... of the 251 races, NRA backed candidates won 229.

that would be mr hall....... he;s still in painful denial about last weeks election results......... he still thinks bloomberg and obamas gun control scheme will happen even though it failed to pass when there were far fewer republicans in the congress than there are now....... i don;t know what gives him that illusion...... the people have clearly spoken......... and there will be no turning back of the clock.... regardless of how much the obamanites might wish for it......

Dead as fried chicken?

Had to LOL at that one!

Fried feral chicken?

 

[subllibrm]

Dead as fried chicken?

Had to LOL at that one!

Fried feral chicken?

yep... and sun fried.... in the middle of the road.... after being squashed by a rangerover..... 8)

Oh, a sail chicken! Peel it off the road, throw it like Frisbee and watch it sail!