The Free Will Challenge

[rsc2a]

So it is settled then...you are a sinner because God predetermined that you would be one, and not only that He is responsible for your acts of sin, and He is to blame ultimately for sin.  He is it's author!  Crazy theology you have there, not to mention blasphemous.

Yes, just like that.  :

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Apparently Rom 2:11 doesn't mean what it says . But at least the mata is honest. Though he used the wrong verses he admits to double predestination. The vast majority of cals don't. I'll gonna help him out with the right ones.

Double predestination is a flawed concept.  It pretends that we're all in some neutral state and that God predestined some to be saved (one predestination), and some not to be saved (second predestination).  But there is no neutral state. 

There is predestination, period.  There is one plan. God chose, out of the same lump of clay, to make some vessels for honor and some for dishonor.  Why did he do this?  To make known his attributes of patience, wrath, power, mercy, etc. (Which is the following passage you cited). 

Both types of vessels were prepared before creation for their fate.  Hence, the reasonable question, "Why do you still blame us, for who resists your will?"  There is no answer to that question except God is God and God will do whatever he wants with his creation. 

 

[Bob H]

Double predestination is a flawed concept.  It pretends that we're all in some neutral state...............

No it's not..................No it doesn't. That's your reasoning to explain it away.

God is God and God will do whatever he wants with his creation.

That's true but that doesn't prove or disprove nuttin

 

[Ransom]

Double predestination is a flawed concept.  It pretends that we're all in some neutral state and that God predestined some to be saved (one predestination), and some not to be saved (second predestination).  But there is no neutral state.

I wouldn't call it a "neutral state"; that wording seems misleading, as though to imply that our moral state is neutral until God casts his vote. That's not the case: we're all depraved, which isn't a neutral state.

Predestination is "double" because both election and reprobation are decreed by God. "Single" predestination, by contrast, asserts that God has decreed the salvation of the elect, but not the condemnation of the reprobate: they are condemned because they are fallen.

What is not true of double predestination, though, is that it treats election and reprobation as symmetrical - as though God has a stack of index cards with everyone's name on them, and he is tossing them into two buckets, one labeled "Heaven" and the other "Hell." Everyone starts out in the "Hell" bucket; the elect are the ones God has mercifully rescued from it.

 

[Bob H]

I can't argue with "Everyone starts out in the hell bucket" cause it's true. But it doesn't disprove the "double predestined" point. I've read most all the translations and they clearly state: "has endured with much patience vessels of wrath PREPARED for destruction".

Here's the NASB: " endured with much patience vessels of wrath PREPARED for destruction"
NIV: "bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—PREPARED for destruction"



I still say > You cannot have the riches of His glory prepared by God without accepting the vessels prepared for destruction. To me, if you accept one, you'll have accept the other.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Double predestination is a flawed concept.  It pretends that we're all in some neutral state and that God predestined some to be saved (one predestination), and some not to be saved (second predestination).  But there is no neutral state.

I wouldn't call it a "neutral state"; that wording seems misleading, as though to imply that our moral state is neutral until God casts his vote. That's not the case: we're all depraved, which isn't a neutral state.

Predestination is "double" because both election and reprobation are decreed by God. "Single" predestination, by contrast, asserts that God has decreed the salvation of the elect, but not the condemnation of the reprobate: they are condemned because they are fallen.

What is not true of double predestination, though, is that it treats election and reprobation as symmetrical - as though God has a stack of index cards with everyone's name on them, and he is tossing them into two buckets, one labeled "Heaven" and the other "Hell." Everyone starts out in the "Hell" bucket; the elect are the ones God has mercifully rescued from it.

Yes, the word is misleading.  And I agree with the "everyone starts out in the hell bucket". 

What bothers me about the term "double predestination" is that it almost sounds like God is sending people to hell against their will, as if they could say, "I wanted to get saved, but you wouldn't let me."  And that's not how it works.

 

[Bob H]

What bothers me about the term "double predestination" is that it almost sounds like God is sending people to hell against their will, as if they could say, "I wanted to get saved, but you wouldn't let me."  And that's not how it works.

It doesn't "sound" like that to me. But again, that's just me. I've never heard any of us say that in a debate cause it's not true. It's you guys that always end up pulling that remark out of the tombs.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

What bothers me about the term "double predestination" is that it almost sounds like God is sending people to hell against their will, as if they could say, "I wanted to get saved, but you wouldn't let me."  And that's not how it works.

It doesn't "sound" like that to me. But again, that's just me. I've never heard any of us say that in a debate cause it's not true. It's you guys that always end up pulling that remark out of the tombs.

That's fine. 

But no matter what analogy you use, you still end up with people God determined to save, and people God determined NOT to save. 

That is, unless you're one of those who think man's will can trump God's will.  Then we get into the double-talk about a God who sovereignly abdicates his sovereignty and somehow remains sovereign. 

 

[Bob H]

That's fine. 

But no matter what analogy you use, you still end up with people God determined to save, and people God determined NOT to save. 

Thank you. That was my contention all along. I would of used a different term rather than that of "double predestination" but I couldn't think of any other. 

  Then we get into the double-talk about a God who sovereignly abdicates his sovereignty and somehow remains sovereign.

It's not an easy argument for sure. It's been going on for over 1800yrs

 

[lnf]

That's fine. 

But no matter what analogy you use, you still end up with people God determined to save, and people God determined NOT to save. 

Thank you. That was my contention all along. I would of used a different term rather than that of "double predestination" but I couldn't think of any other. 

  Then we get into the double-talk about a God who sovereignly abdicates his sovereignty and somehow remains sovereign.

It's not an easy argument for sure. It's been going on for over 1800yrs

Well, I'm no great Bible scholar, so I probably shouldn't comment, but hey...I'm in a mood...

I believe that having all the power is freeing...in that said power can be wielded at will...or not.  I'll use an example from my own life to illustrate:  I was my husband's second wife.  When he died, it was important to my two step-daughters that I mention their mother in my husband's obituary.  So I did.  My family and friends asked me why I did that.  After all, we were married twice as long as he was to his first wife and it is not common to do that.  I responded in this way:  I did it because I could.  It cost me nothing, but it meant everything to them.

And this is how I think of God.  I believe in "whosoever".  God has all the power.  It costs Him nothing to grant mercy to a "whosoever" and save them from destruction.  And doing that does not in any way detract from His sovereignty.

***Oops!  How did I miss that typo?***

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

If you truly have free will, then you should be able to accept and complete this challenge:

Exercise your will to never again commit a sin of thought or deed. 

Let me know how you do. 

I bet half of you failed simply by your reaction to reading this challenge.

I read the posts, and responded here.

To say that you have no control over your will because you are incapable of completely controlling yourself, then you must also admit that God has no control over your will (I am talking about the saved/regenerate here, not the unsaved) BECAUSE we fail to perform His will even after salvation.

Consider
1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
If you fail to give thanks in everything, you fail the will of God denying His sovereignty.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
If you are conformed to this world, you fail the will of God denying His sovereignty.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
Any Christian believer guilty of fornication denies the sovereignty of God over theirs will

I just used simple examples that clearly had the phrase "will of God" in it.

I could use longer examples, like:
Failure to display the "fruit of the Spirit"
Failure to crucify the flesh
etc.

Failure in any area that is "the will of God" for a believer negates Gods ability to control their will.
- By extension, I am incapable of doing more than God can.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

If you truly have free will, then you should be able to accept and complete this challenge:

Exercise your will to never again commit a sin of thought or deed. 

Let me know how you do. 

I bet half of you failed simply by your reaction to reading this challenge.

I read the posts, and responded here.

To say that you have no control over your will because you are incapable of completely controlling yourself, then you must also admit that God has no control over your will (I am talking about the saved/regenerate here, not the unsaved) BECAUSE we fail to perform His will even after salvation.

Consider
1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
If you fail to give thanks in everything, you fail the will of God denying His sovereignty.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
If you are conformed to this world, you fail the will of God denying His sovereignty.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
Any Christian believer guilty of fornication denies the sovereignty of God over theirs will

I just used simple examples that clearly had the phrase "will of God" in it.

I could use longer examples, like:
Failure to display the "fruit of the Spirit"
Failure to crucify the flesh
etc.

Failure in any area that is "the will of God" for a believer negates Gods ability to control their will.
- By extension, I am incapable of doing more than God can.

You are assuming failures are outside his will.  I don't assume that. 

Joseph said to his brothers, "You meant it for evil, but God MEANT IT for good."  He didn't say God permitted it for good, but MEANT IT for good.  It was God's will that the brothers do what they did. 

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

If you truly have free will, then you should be able to accept and complete this challenge:

Exercise your will to never again commit a sin of thought or deed. 

Let me know how you do. 

I bet half of you failed simply by your reaction to reading this challenge.

I read the posts, and responded here.

To say that you have no control over your will because you are incapable of completely controlling yourself, then you must also admit that God has no control over your will (I am talking about the saved/regenerate here, not the unsaved) BECAUSE we fail to perform His will even after salvation.

Consider
1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
If you fail to give thanks in everything, you fail the will of God denying His sovereignty.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
If you are conformed to this world, you fail the will of God denying His sovereignty.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
Any Christian believer guilty of fornication denies the sovereignty of God over theirs will

I just used simple examples that clearly had the phrase "will of God" in it.

I could use longer examples, like:
Failure to display the "fruit of the Spirit"
Failure to crucify the flesh
etc.

Failure in any area that is "the will of God" for a believer negates Gods ability to control their will.
- By extension, I am incapable of doing more than God can.

You are assuming failures are outside his will.  I don't assume that. 

Joseph said to his brothers, "You meant it for evil, but God MEANT IT for good."  He didn't say God permitted it for good, but MEANT IT for good.  It was God's will that the brothers do what they did.

You are then saying by extension that God intended:
Adam to sin for our good
David to sin (Bathsheeba and Uriah) for our good (we got Solomon out of it)
Lot to sleep with his daughters (not sure the good here, but "just Lot vexed his righteous soul)
Jacob to lie to his father (how else would he have received the promises)
etc

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

If you truly have free will, then you should be able to accept and complete this challenge:

Exercise your will to never again commit a sin of thought or deed. 

Let me know how you do. 

I bet half of you failed simply by your reaction to reading this challenge.

I read the posts, and responded here.

To say that you have no control over your will because you are incapable of completely controlling yourself, then you must also admit that God has no control over your will (I am talking about the saved/regenerate here, not the unsaved) BECAUSE we fail to perform His will even after salvation.

Consider
1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
If you fail to give thanks in everything, you fail the will of God denying His sovereignty.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
If you are conformed to this world, you fail the will of God denying His sovereignty.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
Any Christian believer guilty of fornication denies the sovereignty of God over theirs will

I just used simple examples that clearly had the phrase "will of God" in it.

I could use longer examples, like:
Failure to display the "fruit of the Spirit"
Failure to crucify the flesh
etc.

Failure in any area that is "the will of God" for a believer negates Gods ability to control their will.
- By extension, I am incapable of doing more than God can.

You are assuming failures are outside his will.  I don't assume that. 

Joseph said to his brothers, "You meant it for evil, but God MEANT IT for good."  He didn't say God permitted it for good, but MEANT IT for good.  It was God's will that the brothers do what they did.

You are then saying by extension that God intended:
Adam to sin for our good
David to sin (Bathsheeba and Uriah) for our good (we got Solomon out of it)
Lot to sleep with his daughters (not sure the good here, but "just Lot vexed his righteous soul)
Jacob to lie to his father (how else would he have received the promises)
etc

In a word, yes.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

If you truly have free will, then you should be able to accept and complete this challenge:

Exercise your will to never again commit a sin of thought or deed. 

Let me know how you do. 

I bet half of you failed simply by your reaction to reading this challenge.

I read the posts, and responded here.

To say that you have no control over your will because you are incapable of completely controlling yourself, then you must also admit that God has no control over your will (I am talking about the saved/regenerate here, not the unsaved) BECAUSE we fail to perform His will even after salvation.

Consider
1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
If you fail to give thanks in everything, you fail the will of God denying His sovereignty.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
If you are conformed to this world, you fail the will of God denying His sovereignty.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
Any Christian believer guilty of fornication denies the sovereignty of God over theirs will

I just used simple examples that clearly had the phrase "will of God" in it.

I could use longer examples, like:
Failure to display the "fruit of the Spirit"
Failure to crucify the flesh
etc.

Failure in any area that is "the will of God" for a believer negates Gods ability to control their will.
- By extension, I am incapable of doing more than God can.

You are assuming failures are outside his will.  I don't assume that. 

Joseph said to his brothers, "You meant it for evil, but God MEANT IT for good."  He didn't say God permitted it for good, but MEANT IT for good.  It was God's will that the brothers do what they did.

You are then saying by extension that God intended:
Adam to sin for our good
David to sin (Bathsheeba and Uriah) for our good (we got Solomon out of it)
Lot to sleep with his daughters (not sure the good here, but "just Lot vexed his righteous soul)
Jacob to lie to his father (how else would he have received the promises)
etc

In a word, yes.

So to yo then, God is the authour of sin.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So to yo then, God is the authour of sin.

Yo, dude.

What do you mean by author of sin? 

 

[rsc2a]

So to yo then, God is the authour of sin.

Yo, dude.

What do you mean by author of sin?

Authour. Seven letters. Number of perfection and all that.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

So to yo then, God is the authour of sin.

Yo, dude.

What do you mean by author of sin?

Author/Authour
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/author?s=t

Someone who originates, causes, or initiates something.

(Yo was meant to be you. My keyboard needs to go in the garbage)

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Someone who originates, causes, or initiates something.

Yes.

The alternative is that God is not all-knowing or sovereign.  In fact, the alternative is that God is a moron. 

 

[prophet]

Someone who originates, causes, or initiates something.

Yes.

The alternative is that God is not all-knowing or sovereign.  In fact, the alternative is that God is a moron.

Or an alternative is that God granted a free-will, so that He could actually be loved by someone who could have chosen not to. 

Anishinaabe