The "stumbling block" of Calvinism

[The Rogue Tomato]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. - Ephesians 1:3-6

You should know better.  Any good free willer will tell you that he chose us based on his foreknowledge that we would choose him. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

God initiated that, not us

Okay... when does it say he initiated it?

right at the beginning of verse 27:God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

you see, in the "free will'ers" view, they put themselves in the center of their salvation, in the Biblical view, God is in the center of it all.

 

[Recovering IFB]

You should know your translation better. I bet you don't even know why your translation actually CHANGES the Greek construct of the passage.

Also, I asked you to explain your belief. Christ was chosen in Eternity past to be the model for those created in the image of God. It had nothing to do with you... or any Calvinist. It was ALL about CHRIST. Which is the glorious truth of corporate Election and not this silly idea of individual election. A Calvinst had always rather talk about himself.... instead of Christ.

and as I said, If you chose God, you put yourself in the starring role of your salvation, the Biblical view puts God in that role, we're just extras.

by the way, Calvin didnt come up this. He basically quotes Augustine on every page of the Institutes.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Recovering IFB]and as I said, If you chose God, you put yourself in the starring role of your salvation, the Biblical view puts God in that role, we're just extras.[/quote]

The Biblical role has each choosing the other, but PY's pretty much consist of incoherent ravings at this point. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

[quote author=Recovering IFB]and as I said, If you chose God, you put yourself in the starring role of your salvation, the Biblical view puts God in that role, we're just extras.

The Biblical role has each choosing the other, but PY's pretty much consist of incoherent ravings at this point. 
[/quote]
Sorry, but I see God doing all the heavy lifting.see Ez 36. It's God who changes us, so that we would follow him, we wouldn't do that on our own, we can't we wouldn't choose him if left to our own devices.

 

[rsc2a]

True, but it doesn't change the fact that we choose and it is a legitimate choice. I no more throw out the verses that support that than the verses that say God choses.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. - Ephesians 1:3-6

You should know better.  Any good free willer will tell you that he chose us based on his foreknowledge that we would choose him. 

I don't believe this junk. You really should expand your knowledge. The Scriptures teach that the corporate Church was chosen in Christ. That CHRIST was GOD's choice. Not you. Not me. Not anyone else. Your silly... .silly notion of individual election places the emphasis on YOU. Not Christ. This is contrary to the teaching of the Scripture and a central point in the workings of Satan.....

 

[praise_yeshua]

You should know your translation better. I bet you don't even know why your translation actually CHANGES the Greek construct of the passage.

Also, I asked you to explain your belief. Christ was chosen in Eternity past to be the model for those created in the image of God. It had nothing to do with you... or any Calvinist. It was ALL about CHRIST. Which is the glorious truth of corporate Election and not this silly idea of individual election. A Calvinst had always rather talk about himself.... instead of Christ.

and as I said, If you chose God, you put yourself in the starring role of your salvation, the Biblical view puts God in that role, we're just extras.

by the way, Calvin didnt come up this. He basically quotes Augustine on every page of the Institutes.

This is nothing more than a trick of Calvinism. Christ made the way. Christ did everything necessary. Accepting His finished work has nothing to do with "choosing" Him before... HE choose to work mankind a way of escape. Your little first grade trick is worthless. Calvinism is ALL about word games.

By the way, you obviously know very little about Calvinism. Augustine and Calvin differed on several things. In fact, I've already mention one particular item in this thread where they disagreed. Don't believe everything you read. You know nothing more than a few talking points. Nothing else.

 

[praise_yeshua]

God initiated that, not us

Okay... when does it say he initiated it?

right at the beginning of verse 27:God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

I'm glad you admit this. Calvinism doesn't teach this. Not even close. Calvinists all ignore verses like this. You ALWAYS want to change the subject or write it off as if it doesn't exist.

 

[praise_yeshua]

[quote author=Recovering IFB]and as I said, If you chose God, you put yourself in the starring role of your salvation, the Biblical view puts God in that role, we're just extras.

The Biblical role has each choosing the other, but PY's pretty much consist of incoherent ravings at this point. 

Sorry, but I see God doing all the heavy lifting.see Ez 36. It's God who changes us, so that we would follow him, we wouldn't do that on our own, we can't we wouldn't choose him if left to our own devices.
[/quote]

You're ignoring the Power of the Gospel and the Power of the Cross. God finished His Work and gave man a message. A message to ALL.

Those that deny the Power of the Gospel face the judgement of God. You "Calvinist" have long taught this world that they have to wait till God "draws" them to Himself. Those that hear you....are waiting for an overwhelming power that "forces" them to come to Jesus.....

When God has already done everything He's going to do. He's already given His Son. He's already given the Gospel. He's already empowered His Word. He's already called men to spread the message to every living creature.

Your message is nonsense and an hindrance to the Gospel. The message of offense is not in the "Cross of Christ".... its in your worthless doctrine that God has chosen some and refused others.

 

[Recovering IFB]

You should know your translation better. I bet you don't even know why your translation actually CHANGES the Greek construct of the passage.

Also, I asked you to explain your belief. Christ was chosen in Eternity past to be the model for those created in the image of God. It had nothing to do with you... or any Calvinist. It was ALL about CHRIST. Which is the glorious truth of corporate Election and not this silly idea of individual election. A Calvinst had always rather talk about himself.... instead of Christ.

and as I said, If you chose God, you put yourself in the starring role of your salvation, the Biblical view puts God in that role, we're just extras.

by the way, Calvin didnt come up this. He basically quotes Augustine on every page of the Institutes.

This is nothing more than a trick of Calvinism. Christ made the way. Christ did everything necessary. Accepting His finished work has nothing to do with "choosing" Him before... HE choose to work mankind a way of escape. Your little first grade trick is worthless. Calvinism is ALL about word games.

By the way, you obviously know very little about Calvinism. Augustine and Calvin differed on several things. In fact, I've already mention one particular item in this thread where they disagreed. Don't believe everything you read. You know nothing more than a few talking points. Nothing else.

Well, I am going through the Institutes now, so hopefully I have gleaned some knowledge from it. Can you tell me of two beleivers that agree on everything? Seriously? If this would be the case site like would cease to exist. CU, you make me laugh, great to have you back!

 

[rsc2a]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. - Ephesians 1:3-6

You should know better.  Any good free willer will tell you that he chose us based on his foreknowledge that we would choose him. 

I have to admit the "'He chose us in Christ' really means He chose Christ, not us" interpretation is a new one for me.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You should know your translation better. I bet you don't even know why your translation actually CHANGES the Greek construct of the passage.

Also, I asked you to explain your belief. Christ was chosen in Eternity past to be the model for those created in the image of God. It had nothing to do with you... or any Calvinist. It was ALL about CHRIST. Which is the glorious truth of corporate Election and not this silly idea of individual election. A Calvinst had always rather talk about himself.... instead of Christ.

and as I said, If you chose God, you put yourself in the starring role of your salvation, the Biblical view puts God in that role, we're just extras.

by the way, Calvin didnt come up this. He basically quotes Augustine on every page of the Institutes.

This is nothing more than a trick of Calvinism. Christ made the way. Christ did everything necessary. Accepting His finished work has nothing to do with "choosing" Him before... HE choose to work mankind a way of escape. Your little first grade trick is worthless. Calvinism is ALL about word games.

By the way, you obviously know very little about Calvinism. Augustine and Calvin differed on several things. In fact, I've already mention one particular item in this thread where they disagreed. Don't believe everything you read. You know nothing more than a few talking points. Nothing else.

Well, I am going through the Institutes now, so hopefully I have gleaned some knowledge from it. Can you tell me of two beleivers that agree on everything? Seriously? If this would be the case site like would cease to exist. CU, you make me laugh, great to have you back!

I would say.... enjoy the "Institutes" but its a laborious endeavor.

Some points of differences are rather significant. Augustine was known for changing his mind. One of the better qualities of a student..... On the other hand.... I'm sure that you've already seen a rather stubborn streak in Calvin.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. - Ephesians 1:3-6

You should know better.  Any good free willer will tell you that he chose us based on his foreknowledge that we would choose him. 

I have to admit the "'He chose us in Christ' really means He chose Christ, not us" interpretation is a new one for me.

Its not new. Its been in the Scriptures for thousands of years. I believed it because I read it in the Scriptures. I believed it before I ever knew the soteriology "Corporate Election" even existed. I was studying the verses in question and began to study "chosen" and "choice" in the OT. You find verses like Psalm 89:3..... but what really got me was Isaiah 42:1. I challenge you to do a exhaustive exegesis of Isaiah 42:1 and see what you get.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

If it wasn't a stumbling block, it would just be called "Christianity", with no need to pay homage to some political leader/religious figure.

With that brilliant soteriological argument, the matter should be settled forever and ever...Amen!

 

[subllibrm]

<snip> Augustine was known for changing his mind. One of the better qualities of a student..... On the other hand.... I'm sure that you've already seen a rather stubborn streak in Calvin.

Says the student who stubbornly refuses to hear any teaching contrary to his own conclusions.

 

[praise_yeshua]

<snip> Augustine was known for changing his mind. One of the better qualities of a student..... On the other hand.... I'm sure that you've already seen a rather stubborn streak in Calvin.

Says the student who stubbornly refuses to hear any teaching contrary to his own conclusions.

Contrary to what you might believe, I have changed my mind many times over the years. God has the record. I don't have to prove it to anyone. I'll soon have been studying the Scriptures for 30 years. While that isn't as many as some, Its nothing to laugh about. I've tried to give my heart to know the Truth and I've tried to take the approach "I don't have a dog in the race".

You may say a lot of things about me, most of them.... probably true. I do endeavor to be informed. There was time, I believed many things attributed to Calvin. I changed my mind. I had to. Its what any child of God must do when they recognize a lie.

 

[Ransom]

If it wasn't a stumbling block, it would just be called "Christianity", with no need to pay homage to some political leader/religious figure.

Christianity was named after a religious figure.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If it wasn't a stumbling block, it would just be called "Christianity", with no need to pay homage to some political leader/religious figure.

Christianity was named after a religious figure.

See.... A CALVINIST is so wrapped up in being accurate in petty things..... He misses the "BIG" picture.

Hey Ransom.... I'm pretty sure .... "THAT" religious figure was MORE than just a "religious figure"...... which is pretty much the exact point of the post. Thanks for the confirmation....

 

[Ransom]

ee.... A CALVINIST is so wrapped up in being accurate in petty things..... He misses the "BIG" picture.

See . . . a FREE-WILLY is so wrapped up in faulting a Calvinist for everything..... He missed my point.