Three ACTUAL Reasons Why Millennials Are Leaving the IFB Church

[subllibrm]

A Calvinist just takes pride in being God's EXCLUSIVE choice in Eternity.

You constantly make this accusation and yet I know of no one who displays such "pride" as you seem to imagine.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]...would believe in universalism.

Tis a possibility as I read scripture.

Rob Bell is in da house!
[/quote]

If not, he might be a dead ringer theologically...

(See what I did there? )

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]...would believe in universalism.

Tis a possibility as I read scripture.

Rob Bell is in da house!

At its core Calvinism and Universalism are both philosophies. Nothing more. Nothing less. They both start with their conclusion and work feverishly to "back fill" their belief with the Scriptures. In many ways.... they are KJVOist on steroids.
[/quote]
Or they are attempts at understanding certain parts of Scripture as they seem to be written without wholesale ignoring or diminishing certain passages. The problem with both systems is the same as their counterparts...they accomplish this by ignoring other passages.

I chose to accept them all and say I dint know how it all works.

 

[subllibrm]

And I again I say:

Whosoever will = doctrine (offer to) for unbelievers.

Chosen before the foundation of the world = doctrine (promise to) for believers.

The offer of salvation is made to an unbeliever. Christ is exalted and glorified in that offering whether or not there is a response. Or as Paul put it "so that some may be saved".

>>>>>>>>>>

No one I know of shares the gospel by saying "you may be one of the elect". That is a red herring colored straw man.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I chose to accept them all and say I dint know how it all works.

It's magic.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

And I again I say:

Whosoever will = doctrine (offer to) for unbelievers.

It's a flimsy base for a doctrine. 

The words themselves don't DEFINE an offer.  "Whosoever will fall into this pit shall break his legs," doesn't define an offer to fall into a pit.  It just tells you what will happen to those who do fall into the pit. 

"And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely," is a form of an offer, but it is a qualified offer to those who are athirst. 

The question then becomes, "who is athirst, and how did they come to be athirst?"  Calvinists and free-willers both have a satisfactory answer to that question, so the "Whosoever will" in this case doesn't support either. 

In fact, there is no "whosoever" in the Bible that is a definitive "offer" that supports free-will exclusive of predestination.  "Whosoever believes" just says "those who believe", not "those who decide to believe".

 

[praise_yeshua]

A Calvinist just takes pride in being God's EXCLUSIVE choice in Eternity.

You constantly make this accusation and yet I know of no one who displays such "pride" as you seem to imagine.

Sure they do. You've just not meet them and the doctrine itself teaches it. Its the natural outcome of such beliefs. You ARE what you believe.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And I again I say:

Whosoever will = doctrine (offer to) for unbelievers.

Chosen before the foundation of the world = doctrine (promise to) for believers.

The offer of salvation is made to an unbeliever. Christ is exalted and glorified in that offering whether or not there is a response. Or as Paul put it "so that some may be saved".

>>>>>>>>>>

No one I know of shares the gospel by saying "you may be one of the elect". That is a red herring colored straw man.

I never made the "straw man" argument.

Just because someone doesn't come right out and say it.... doesn't mean that isn't what their beliefs teaches or its not what they believe. Satan is very crafty when it comes to how he "speaks".

 

[praise_yeshua]

And I again I say:

Whosoever will = doctrine (offer to) for unbelievers.

It's a flimsy base for a doctrine. 

The words themselves don't DEFINE an offer.  "Whosoever will fall into this pit shall break his legs," doesn't define an offer to fall into a pit.  It just tells you what will happen to those who do fall into the pit. 

"And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely," is a form of an offer, but it is a qualified offer to those who are athirst. 

The question then becomes, "who is athirst, and how did they come to be athirst?"  Calvinists and free-willers both have a satisfactory answer to that question, so the "Whosoever will" in this case doesn't support either. 

In fact, there is no "whosoever" in the Bible that is a definitive "offer" that supports free-will exclusive of predestination.  "Whosoever believes" just says "those who believe", not "those who decide to believe".

I know you've been going through some trials in your life.

Do you have the same attitude above or methodology when it comes to prayer?

Let me give you an example. When God says to "call unto me" and "I will answer thee"..... is it really an offer for your will to effect God's will?

If I didn't believe it did.... I'd quit praying to such a "god".

 

[subllibrm]

A Calvinist just takes pride in being God's EXCLUSIVE choice in Eternity.

You constantly make this accusation and yet I know of no one who displays such "pride" as you seem to imagine.

Sure they do. You've just not meet them and the doctrine itself teaches it. Its the natural outcome of such beliefs. You ARE what you believe.

I live in Western Michigan which has the highest population density of Dutch Reformed (Calvinists all) anywhere that I know of. CRC and RCA are both evangelistic and seek to bring the gospel to the lost.

The closest to what you describe that I have ever seen would be Protestant Reformed. They are total wackadoodle and hold no sway over anyone outside of their DNA string. Even then there is no "pride" that I have seen demonstrated. A lack of concern for the lost yes, a sense of superiority, no.

BTW I haven't seen any UFOs or space aliens either so by your logic, my lack of experience with such proves they exist.  :

 

[rsc2a]

Affect, not effect.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I know you've been going through some trials in your life.

Do you have the same attitude above or methodology when it comes to prayer?

Let me give you an example. When God says to "call unto me" and "I will answer thee"..... is it really an offer for your will to effect God's will?

If I didn't believe it did.... I'd quit praying to such a "god".

Prayer is a way to mentally and spiritually find alignment with God's will.  A good example is the Lord's prayer.  Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

I make my requests, nevertheless, not what I will, but God's will be done.  That's what it means to "believe in God" -- to trust him and his decisions.

 

[praise_yeshua]

A Calvinist just takes pride in being God's EXCLUSIVE choice in Eternity.

You constantly make this accusation and yet I know of no one who displays such "pride" as you seem to imagine.

Sure they do. You've just not meet them and the doctrine itself teaches it. Its the natural outcome of such beliefs. You ARE what you believe.

I live in Western Michigan which has the highest population density of Dutch Reformed (Calvinists all) anywhere that I know of. CRC and RCA are both evangelistic and seek to bring the gospel to the lost.

They are NOT preaching the Gospel.

The closest to what you describe that I have ever seen would be Protestant Reformed. They are total wackadoodle and hold no sway over anyone outside of their DNA string. Even then there is no "pride" that I have seen demonstrated. A lack of concern for the lost yes, a sense of superiority, no.

Nonsense. The doctrine teaches PRIDE. Your very belief in election is full of PRIDE. Its all about you and nothing about Christ. Christ is only the means of YOUR election. Not God's choice in Election.

Are you saying that non of these people you've mention don't teach about "election"? Don't tell me its not part of their "gospel".

BTW I haven't seen any UFOs or space aliens either so by your logic, my lack of experience with such proves they exist.  :

You're got it backwards. You're lack of experience doesn't deny their existence. Keep up would you?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I know you've been going through some trials in your life.

Do you have the same attitude above or methodology when it comes to prayer?

Let me give you an example. When God says to "call unto me" and "I will answer thee"..... is it really an offer for your will to effect God's will?

If I didn't believe it did.... I'd quit praying to such a "god".

Prayer is a way to mentally and spiritually find alignment with God's will.  A good example is the Lord's prayer.  Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

I make my requests, nevertheless, not what I will, but God's will be done.  That's what it means to "believe in God" -- to trust him and his decisions.

I hear you... The old C.S. Lewis "changes me" attitude.

Pardon me.... but that is just about worthless.

I pray to get what I want. Things I DON'T HAVE. Things that are GOOD. Things that are WORTHY. Things that I NEED. Yes. If God doesn't want me to have it, then I don't necessary, ultimately, want to have it. BUT.....

Just what value do you place on the words found in James when he says "you have not, because you ask not"?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Affect, not effect.

You're right. I messed up.

Please forgive me.

 

[Recovering IFB]

You have some serious issues!! You seem to become unglued over any Calvinism issues come up.

 

[subllibrm]

A Calvinist just takes pride in being God's EXCLUSIVE choice in Eternity.

You constantly make this accusation and yet I know of no one who displays such "pride" as you seem to imagine.

Sure they do. You've just not meet them and the doctrine itself teaches it. Its the natural outcome of such beliefs. You ARE what you believe.

I live in Western Michigan which has the highest population density of Dutch Reformed (Calvinists all) anywhere that I know of. CRC and RCA are both evangelistic and seek to bring the gospel to the lost.

They are NOT preaching the Gospel.

The closest to what you describe that I have ever seen would be Protestant Reformed. They are total wackadoodle and hold no sway over anyone outside of their DNA string. Even then there is no "pride" that I have seen demonstrated. A lack of concern for the lost yes, a sense of superiority, no.

Nonsense. The doctrine teaches PRIDE. Your very belief in election is full of PRIDE. Its all about you and nothing about Christ. Christ is only the means of YOUR election. Not God's choice in Election.

Are you saying that non of these people you've mention don't teach about "election"? Don't tell me its not part of their "gospel".

BTW I haven't seen any UFOs or space aliens either so by your logic, my lack of experience with such proves they exist.  :

You're got it backwards. You're lack of experience doesn't deny their existence. Keep up would you?

This has been asked many time and I do not recall you answering with anything but anger, snark or a solid "well they do".

What would there be to be prideful about in being chosen by God? The bible is clear that faith and grace are the means "lest any man boast". What is it that I would be boasting about to say that it was all God's doing? If I said "I chose God", "I decided to accept Christ", "I asked Jesus into my heart" (all valid statements in their proper context BTW) it would seem much more prideful. Ask my atheist friends. They accuse me of being prideful because "I" chose Christ. You on the other hand are saying that I am prideful for giving all the credit to God. That is an incredible leap of logic.

Let's try some other "prideful" things:

Me: Honey, thank you for making pot roast for me for dinner. I know you prefer spaghetti and I appreciate that you are so kind and generous.
Her: Hey, now just one minute buster. Don't you be taking prideful credit for my hard work in the kitchen.

Me: I want to thank all you guys for coming over and doing the chores while I was laid up from back surgery. I am humbled by your love and care.
Them: Ah, so it is all about you and your prideful acceptance of our kindness and help. You are just so full of yourself it makes us sick.

Or in your imaginary world:

Me: God chose me before the foundation of the world! Neener, neener, neener! Me not you! Hahahahahahaahahahahaha. Burn in hell you unelected worms.

Of course since I have no idea who the elect are such a thing would never come out of my mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know that "they" say it all the time and I just haven't happened to have heard them. Thereby proving that they do.  :-\

One actual quote of someone making such a statement might help your cause. But if there was such a quote you would have posted it ad infinitum.

 

[subllibrm]

You have some serious issues!! You seem to become unglued over any Calvinism issues come up.

Am I the only one who imagines him "foaming at the mouth" so to speak?

 

[rsc2a]

You really prefer pot roast over spaghetti?

 

[praise_yeshua]

You really prefer pot roast over spaghetti?

Its Filet Mignon. Get it right...