Three ACTUAL Reasons Why Millennials Are Leaving the IFB Church

[praise_yeshua]

You have some serious issues!! You seem to become unglued over any Calvinism issues come up.

I'm not foaming at the mouth. Just passionately against the lie that is Calvinism.

 

[Recovering IFB]

You have some serious issues!! You seem to become unglued over any Calvinism issues come up.

I'm not foaming at the mouth. Just passionately against the lie that is Calvinism.

it seems to me you lie about Calvinism because you don't have a full grasp of it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This has been asked many time and I do not recall you answering with anything but anger, snark or a solid "well they do".

Sure.... an answer isn't REALLY an answer....

What would there be to be prideful about in being chosen by God? The bible is clear that faith and grace are the means "lest any man boast". What is it that I would be boasting about to say that it was all God's doing? If I said "I chose God", "I decided to accept Christ", "I asked Jesus into my heart" (all valid statements in their proper context BTW) it would seem much more prideful. Ask my atheist friends. They accuse me of being prideful because "I" chose Christ. You on the other hand are saying that I am prideful for giving all the credit to God. That is an incredible leap of logic.

First, lets take this step by step. I want you to completely understand what I'm writing. So don't "muddy" the water by throwing a lot of rocks in as we wade..... slowly.... in.

God's FIRST choice was His Son. Will you admit this? Or.....

Would you claim that God's FIRST choice was in you? Lets get these "links" in the chain...just right.

Me: Honey, thank you for making pot roast for me for dinner. I know you prefer spaghetti and I appreciate that you are so kind and generous.
Her: Hey, now just one minute buster. Don't you be taking prideful credit for my hard work in the kitchen.

I must admit. I have no idea why you would choice such an illustration. Please explain how this applies to what I've said?

Me: I want to thank all you guys for coming over and doing the chores while I was laid up from back surgery. I am humbled by your love and care.
Them: Ah, so it is all about you and your prideful acceptance of our kindness and help. You are just so full of yourself it makes us sick.

I am so glad you used this example. There is BIG problem with your application of this example. Everyone else has back problems too. Are you going to get up with your "bad back" and help everyone else..... or are you going to sit there and just enjoy your inner circle of helpers?

Or in your imaginary world:

Are you beginning to "foam at the mouth". I'm sure that..... No one but an NON CALVINIST.... could actually show disdain for the so called "doctrines of grace".

Me: God chose me before the foundation of the world! Neener, neener, neener! Me not you! Hahahahahahaahahahahaha. Burn in hell you unelected worms.

I never said you did such or that the Calvinist did such. NO. They are like their father. They are crafty. They'll just tell you.

Calvinist: I'm sorry you're in hell. Its God choice. Not mine. Its really not my fault. Its God's fault. He's the one that didn't choose you. I'm so sorry. I wish it could be different.... but you know God!
We really don't have to explain why. It just His "good pleasure".

Of course since I have no idea who the elect are such a thing would never come out of my mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know that "they" say it all the time and I just haven't happened to have heard them. Thereby proving that they do.  :-\

No it wouldn't. I'm positive YOU wouldn't. I never said you did. I never claimed Calvinist did. Prove I did. You're far too smart to openly say such things. Some of the worst people I've ever known wouldn't saw anything against their fellow men. They just ignored them. They excluded those they didn't care for from their inner circle of privilege and blamed God for their actions. They built their own churches and collected monies for their own causes. They did "good" in the name of God just like those dead Pharisees during the time of Christ.

I'll say it again. Part of the "gospel" you preach is what you believe about "election". What you believe about "election" is that God has chosen some and damned others. This part of your message. People listen. People hear what you're saying. You can be nice all you want and claim you're message is consistent and everyone...... In reality... You're the guy standing at the door with the eviction notice saying.... "Its not me man. Its the guy that owns the place".

That doesn't change the fact..... you're still getting kicked out of the house........ and it was PLANNED to happen before you ever rented the place.

One actual quote of someone making such a statement might help your cause. But if there was such a quote you would have posted it ad infinitum.

Not my standard. Why are you imposing your own standard of proof and pretending I have to obey?

 

[praise_yeshua]

You have some serious issues!! You seem to become unglued over any Calvinism issues come up.

I'm not foaming at the mouth. Just passionately against the lie that is Calvinism.

it seems to me you lie about Calvinism because you don't have a full grasp of it.

Sure... whatever you say. I hope it makes you feel better....

Its often the trick of Satan to dismiss the Truth by claiming "they really don't understand what they are saying".

I generally don't accept this as a defense. Well.... come to think of it. Most people don't. The phrase "you don't understand" isn't a valid defense.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Just what value do you place on the words found in James when he says "you have not, because you ask not"?

It seems pretty self-explanatory to me.  Asking, itself, is God's will for us, and you receive when you ask according to God's will, and not according to your own will.  That's what I said.  I make my requests, nevertheless, God's will be done, not my own will. 

"Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures."

 

[no value]

I thought the reason why millennials are leaving IFB churches is because Jack Schaap is no longer pope.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Just what value do you place on the words found in James when he says "you have not, because you ask not"?

It seems pretty self-explanatory to me.  Asking, itself, is God's will for us, and you receive when you ask according to God's will, and not according to your own will.  That's what I said.  I make my requests, nevertheless, God's will be done, not my own will. 

"Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures."

You're parsing your words.

James said "you have not, because you ask not". This statement stands alone. You ALSO, do not receive because you ask amiss. You're combining the two statements as if they are dependent on one another. They only things they have in common is "prayer" and "not receiving". There two DIFFERENT reasons that produce the same result.

Don't you believe God's will is done regardless of your own actions? Take for example, your current trial of faith. Do you believe the result is already been decided before it ever happened?

 

[Recovering IFB]

You have some serious issues!! You seem to become unglued over any Calvinism issues come up.

I'm not foaming at the mouth. Just passionately against the lie that is Calvinism.

it seems to me you lie about Calvinism because you don't have a full grasp of it.

Sure... whatever you say. I hope it makes you feel better....

Its often the trick of Satan to dismiss the Truth by claiming "they really don't understand what they are saying".

I generally don't accept this as a defense. Well.... come to think of it. Most people don't. The phrase "you don't understand" isn't a valid defense.

I'm not the one making lies about people here

 

[praise_yeshua]

You have some serious issues!! You seem to become unglued over any Calvinism issues come up.

I'm not foaming at the mouth. Just passionately against the lie that is Calvinism.

it seems to me you lie about Calvinism because you don't have a full grasp of it.

Sure... whatever you say. I hope it makes you feel better....

Its often the trick of Satan to dismiss the Truth by claiming "they really don't understand what they are saying".

I generally don't accept this as a defense. Well.... come to think of it. Most people don't. The phrase "you don't understand" isn't a valid defense.

I'm not the one making lies about people here

Name one and be very specific. Just one and then we can, as you see it, get to the others.

 

[Recovering IFB]

That we are being prideful that we were chosen.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That we are being prideful that we were chosen.

More specifically, I said and do believe that this is natural result of your beliefs. Now tell me how it isn't.

I spent a little time explaining how it is. Spend a little time and tell me how it isn't.

You can start by answering the question. Which comes first. God's choice in you or God's choice in His Son?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Just what value do you place on the words found in James when he says "you have not, because you ask not"?

It seems pretty self-explanatory to me.  Asking, itself, is God's will for us, and you receive when you ask according to God's will, and not according to your own will.  That's what I said.  I make my requests, nevertheless, God's will be done, not my own will. 

"Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures."

You're parsing your words.

James said "you have not, because you ask not". This statement stands alone. You ALSO, do not receive because you ask amiss. You're combining the two statements as if they are dependent on one another. They only things they have in common is "prayer" and "not receiving". There two DIFFERENT reasons that produce the same result.

Don't you believe God's will is done regardless of your own actions? Take for example, your current trial of faith. Do you believe the result is already been decided before it ever happened?

The two sentences go together.  You only want to separate them because that would serve your goals. 

Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will.  So, yes, as with everything, the result is already decided before it happens.  I know what a typical free-willer would say to that -- if it has already been decided, then why pray?  But that question exposes a lack of faith in God's design. 

That question might just as well be asked of Jesus.  Jesus said God already knows what we need before we ask.  So why bother asking? 

What do you think Jesus meant when he said, "Whatever you ask in my name, that I will do"?  Was Jesus saying we should tack "in Jesus' name" at the end of every prayer, which are the magic words to have your prayer answered the way you want? 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

You have some serious issues!! You seem to become unglued over any Calvinism issues come up.

I'm not foaming at the mouth. Just passionately against the lie that is Calvinism.

it seems to me you lie about Calvinism because you don't have a full grasp of it.

Sure... whatever you say. I hope it makes you feel better....

Its often the trick of Satan to dismiss the Truth by claiming "they really don't understand what they are saying".

I generally don't accept this as a defense. Well.... come to think of it. Most people don't. The phrase "you don't understand" isn't a valid defense.

With all due respect, I don't think you do have a true grasp of 'Calvinism'.
To say that if one believes God is sovereign negates his prayer life is ludicrous.
It would be akin to my saying you Armenians believe God is in heaven fretting over what we might do next on planet earth!
Do you believe that?
I think not.
Do you believe anyone can or will come to Christ without first being 'drawn' by the Father?
I would hope not, but....

 

[subllibrm]

You really prefer pot roast over spaghetti?

Its Filet Mignon. Get it right...

My wife does.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You have some serious issues!! You seem to become unglued over any Calvinism issues come up.

I'm not foaming at the mouth. Just passionately against the lie that is Calvinism.

it seems to me you lie about Calvinism because you don't have a full grasp of it.

Sure... whatever you say. I hope it makes you feel better....

Its often the trick of Satan to dismiss the Truth by claiming "they really don't understand what they are saying".

I generally don't accept this as a defense. Well.... come to think of it. Most people don't. The phrase "you don't understand" isn't a valid defense.

With all due respect, I don't think you do have a true grasp of 'Calvinism'.
To say that if one believes God is sovereign negates his prayer life is ludicrous.
It would be akin to my saying you Armenians believe God is in heaven fretting over what we might do next on planet earth!
Do you believe that?
I think not.
Do you believe anyone can or will come to Christ without first being 'drawn' by the Father?
I would hope not, but....

I never said it negates his prayer life. I asked about motives and the logical conclusions of said beliefs. Pray all you want. Pray some more. Don't tell me what you believe about prayer doesn't change... IF.... You believe that prayer doesn't change anything. I happen to believe that prayer changes things. I believe that prayer even changes the mind of God. I can prove it. Care to hear?

I'm not an Aremenian.

The closest you can come to my beliefs is Open Theism but I'm not an Open Theist. I believe many things differently than a Open Theist.

God draws men to Christ through the Gospel. He draws ALL MEN. Every last man. You're the one that extends the word "draw" to mean something more than what it means.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

You have some serious issues!! You seem to become unglued over any Calvinism issues come up.

I'm not foaming at the mouth. Just passionately against the lie that is Calvinism.

it seems to me you lie about Calvinism because you don't have a full grasp of it.

Sure... whatever you say. I hope it makes you feel better....

Its often the trick of Satan to dismiss the Truth by claiming "they really don't understand what they are saying".

I generally don't accept this as a defense. Well.... come to think of it. Most people don't. The phrase "you don't understand" isn't a valid defense.

With all due respect, I don't think you do have a true grasp of 'Calvinism'.
To say that if one believes God is sovereign negates his prayer life is ludicrous.
It would be akin to my saying you Armenians believe God is in heaven fretting over what we might do next on planet earth!
Do you believe that?
I think not.
Do you believe anyone can or will come to Christ without first being 'drawn' by the Father?
I would hope not, but....

I never said it negates his prayer life. I asked about motives and the logical conclusions of said beliefs. Pray all you want. Pray so more. Don't tell what you believe about prayer doesn't change.... IF.... You believe that prayer doesn't change anything. I happen to believe that prayer changes things. I believe that prayer even changes the mind of God. I can prove it. Care to hear?

I'm not an Aremenian.

The closest you can come to my beliefs is Open Theism but I'm not an Open Theist. I believe many things differently than a Open Theist.

God draws men to Christ through the Gospel. He draws ALL MEN. Every last man. You're the one that extends the word "draw" to mean something more than what it means.

Again, with all due respect, if you choose to call me a Calvinist, I shall choose to call you an Armenian! 

No, He does not draw all men in the same way...if He did all men would be saved.
Jesus told the Pharisees "You will not come to me that you might have eternal life".
In Acts 16, we are told of the conversion of Lydia..."who's heart the Lord opened".
In Acts 13 we are told..."when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed".

No man will come to Christ unless the father draws him.
Acts 16:19 is an unusual (to you I'm sure) use of the word 'draw'...helkuo...the same word used in John.

The basic difference in our view of God being sovereign is this: you have a man centered faith....it depended on you...and of God convincing you so that you could be saved. My view is God centered...He in His grace and mercy saved me...while I was lost and without hope in the world. Had He left me to decide, I would be hell bound.
That, my friend is humbling...not pride producing!

 

[rsc2a]

Arminianism is what you are trying to say.

Armenians are people who are from Armenia.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Again, with all due respect, if you choose to call me a Calvinist, I shall choose to call you an Armenian! 

You're doctrine matches Calvinism. My doctrine doesn't match either Arminius nor a Armenian

Do as you please. I have a valid reason for using the term in association with your beliefs.

No, He does not draw all men in the same way...if He did all men would be saved.
Jesus told the Pharisees "You will not come to me that you might have eternal life".

I certainly wasn't talking about a Pharisee being saved or even the offer made to a Pharisee. I was talking of Gospel of the Incarnation, The Cross, and The Resurrection. Don't confuse this with anything else.

In Acts 16, we are told of the conversion of Lydia..."who's heart the Lord opened".
In Acts 13 we are told..."when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed".

No man will come to Christ unless the father draws him.
Acts 16:19 is an unusual (to you I'm sure) use of the word 'draw'...helkuo...the same word used in John.

Greg Boyd has an excellent answer to these types of verses and how they are used by "Calvinists". See his answer here..

http://reknew.org/2008/01/acts-1348/

My view varies a little from his but I don't honestly feel like writing 3 paragraphs at the moment to explain it. We are about 90 percent in agreement in this.

On a side note, it interesting how you don't like being called a Calvinist but you are sure using their "proof verse".

The basic difference in our view of God being sovereign is this: you have a man centered faith....it depended on you...and of God convincing you so that you could be saved. My view is God centered...He in His grace and mercy saved me...while I was lost and without hope in the world. Had He left me to decide, I would be hell bound.
That, my friend is humbling...not pride producing!

Why did you leave out the most important part? You believe that God chose YOU and rejected others before the world was ever formed. In fact, you believe God chose YOU before He ever chose His darling Son for YOU. If this isn't arrogant and PRIDEFUL, then what is?

Sure you love to talk about Grace. Sure you love to talk about Mercy. Sure you love to talk about giving God ALL The Glory..... The only problem is..... You really DON'T. Christ isn't FIRST in your "flavor" of Election.

YOU ARE!!!!! You're at the center of God's choice. Not Christ. You can say anything you want about Grace, Mercy and Glory..... Your position on Election says otherwise.

Your "gospel water" isn't worth drinking!!!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Just what value do you place on the words found in James when he says "you have not, because you ask not"?

It seems pretty self-explanatory to me.  Asking, itself, is God's will for us, and you receive when you ask according to God's will, and not according to your own will.  That's what I said.  I make my requests, nevertheless, God's will be done, not my own will. 

"Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures."

You're parsing your words.

James said "you have not, because you ask not". This statement stands alone. You ALSO, do not receive because you ask amiss. You're combining the two statements as if they are dependent on one another. They only things they have in common is "prayer" and "not receiving". There two DIFFERENT reasons that produce the same result.

Don't you believe God's will is done regardless of your own actions? Take for example, your current trial of faith. Do you believe the result is already been decided before it ever happened?

The two sentences go together.  You only want to separate them because that would serve your goals.

Good grief man... I didn't separate them. I told how they were connected and how they differed.

The one that doesn't ask.... CAN'T ask amiss... He didn't ask to start with.

Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will.  So, yes, as with everything, the result is already decided before it happens.  I know what a typical free-willer would say to that -- if it has already been decided, then why pray?  But that question exposes a lack of faith in God's design. 

How does that espouse a lack of faith in God's design? We are debating God's design. I'm certain not espousing a belief that I believe contradicts faith. Tell me how it contradicts faith.

I believe that God does things for us..... regardless of our own actions. However, I believe God does things for us, because we ASK Him. I just happen to believe that God likes for His children to ASK Him for things. I ALSO believe the entirety of the future is NOT written. That God DOES change His mind about things. This in NO WAY, changes God.... Himself.

That question might just as well be asked of Jesus.  Jesus said God already knows what we need before we ask.  So why bother asking? 

Jesus said this to simplify prayer life. For His own not to endlessly ask for every single things they might seem to need from day to day. To focus on what's important and not to make "long prayer" to be seen and "feel" like they are really doing something for God.

What do you think Jesus meant when he said, "Whatever you ask in my name, that I will do"?  Was Jesus saying we should tack "in Jesus' name" at the end of every prayer, which are the magic words to have your prayer answered the way you want?

Nope. I just happen to believe Jesus was talking to the apostles... and that it was important for them to realize that Jesus "had their back" in this new endeavor to evangelizes the world. That HE would always be their central focus in EVERYTHING. "ask in His Name" is all about things to do in "HIS NAME".

Those "THINGS" pertaining to the message of the Gospel.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Arminianism is what you are trying to say.

Armenians are people who are from Armenia.

You are of course correct!
Jacobus Arminius was not an Armenian, either!