Three ACTUAL Reasons Why Millennials Are Leaving the IFB Church

[Recovering IFB]

That we are being prideful that we were chosen.

You can start by answering the question. Which comes first. God's choice in you or God's choice in His Son?

You have to explain yourself, I don't understand what you are getting at?

 

[subllibrm]

That we are being prideful that we were chosen.

More specifically, I said and do believe that this is natural result of your beliefs. Now tell me how it isn't.

I spent a little time explaining how it is. Spend a little time and tell me how it isn't.

You can start by answering the question. Which comes first. God's choice in you or God's choice in His Son?

God's choosing me is a humbling truth.

I am not sure what your thought is about "choosing" His Son since they are co-eternal. His choice in how the salvation plan would work might precede His choice of the elect if He were bound by time. But in no way do I (or anyone that I am aware of) believe that His choosing me "before the foundation of the world" (before time) puts me ahead of His Son. That is a convoluted conclusion that you have created yourself.

 

[subllibrm]

That we are being prideful that we were chosen.

You can start by answering the question. Which comes first. God's choice in you or God's choice in His Son?

You have to explain yourself, I don't understand what you are getting at?

As I understand it, he thinks that Calvinism somehow puts God's choice of the elect ahead of His choice of His Son as the Savior of the elect.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Again, with all due respect, if you choose to call me a Calvinist, I shall choose to call you an Armenian! 

You're doctrine matches Calvinism. My doctrine doesn't match either Arminius nor a Armenian

Do as you please. I have a valid reason for using the term in association with your beliefs.

No, He does not draw all men in the same way...if He did all men would be saved.
Jesus told the Pharisees "You will not come to me that you might have eternal life".

I certainly wasn't talking about a Pharisee being saved or even the offer made to a Pharisee. I was talking of Gospel of the Incarnation, The Cross, and The Resurrection. Don't confuse this with anything else.

In Acts 16, we are told of the conversion of Lydia..."who's heart the Lord opened".
In Acts 13 we are told..."when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed".

No man will come to Christ unless the father draws him.
Acts 16:19 is an unusual (to you I'm sure) use of the word 'draw'...helkuo...the same word used in John.

Greg Boyd has an excellent answer to these types of verses and how they are used by "Calvinists". See his answer here..

http://reknew.org/2008/01/acts-1348/

My view varies a little from his but I don't honestly feel like writing 3 paragraphs at the moment to explain it. We are about 90 percent in agreement in this.

On a side note, it interesting how you don't like being called a Calvinist but you are sure using their "proof verse".

The basic difference in our view of God being sovereign is this: you have a man centered faith....it depended on you...and of God convincing you so that you could be saved. My view is God centered...He in His grace and mercy saved me...while I was lost and without hope in the world. Had He left me to decide, I would be hell bound.
That, my friend is humbling...not pride producing!

Why did you leave out the most important part? You believe that God chose YOU and rejected others before the world was ever formed. In fact, you believe God chose YOU before He ever chose His darling Son for YOU. If this isn't arrogant and PRIDEFUL, then what is?

Sure you love to talk about Grace. Sure you love to talk about Mercy. Sure you love to talk about giving God ALL The Glory..... The only problem is..... You really DON'T. Christ isn't FIRST in your "flavor" of Election.

YOU ARE!!!!! You're at the center of God's choice. Not Christ. You can say anything you want about Grace, Mercy and Glory..... Your position on Election says otherwise.

Your "gospel water" isn't worth drinking!!!!

I'm sure if only I'd go to that site and read the Arminean talking points, I'd be convinced, all Biblical evidence to the contrary aside.
Sorry, I don't feel drawn to the site and I choose to exercise my free will to stay away. 
And, as to pride, it seems those on the man centered Arminian side of this fence elevate themselves.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That we are being prideful that we were chosen.

More specifically, I said and do believe that this is natural result of your beliefs. Now tell me how it isn't.

I spent a little time explaining how it is. Spend a little time and tell me how it isn't.

You can start by answering the question. Which comes first. God's choice in you or God's choice in His Son?

God's choosing me is a humbling truth.

I am not sure what your thought is about "choosing" His Son since they are co-eternal. His choice in how the salvation plan would work might precede His choice of the elect if He were bound by time. But in no way do I (or anyone that I am aware of) believe that His choosing me "before the foundation of the world" (before time) puts me ahead of His Son. That is a convoluted conclusion that you have created yourself.

If you're going to continue to "cherry pick" bits and pieces of what I have to say.... You can talk to someone else. You're being dishonest. I have spent considerable time trying to deal with what you've said and you've ignore the vast majority of it. This is the typical tactics of a floundering Calvinist that can't defend much of anything he says or does.

I'll go point by point with you with anything to do with our conversation but I will not be subjected to "hit and runs" that don't take into consideration what I've already written.

Now, to answer your question.

It is clear. I know you're new to what I have said in past, so I will say it again. I'll be short and sweet with it, but do not answer me unless you want to deal specifically with each individual part of my statements.

1. God is Time. God is not absent Time. God is Time. God brings order to chaos. The absence of Time is nothing but chaos.
2. "Eternity" or the word "Eternal" does not indicate the absence of Time but rather the endless measure of Time. To say that God does not exist within Time is contrary to the Scriptures and nothing more than a trick of the devil. C.S. Lewis taught this crap and everyone bought it... "hook line and sinker".
3. God does things in "ORDER". We call this "cause and effect". Time at its fundamentalist point.... is nothing more than "cause and effect". I will accept the idea that the "experience" of time is different for many. However, you can not say that Time isn't sequential. There is a "sequence" to events.....even with God.
4. The Calvinist view of Election places the "elect" at the center of God's Universe. Or God's "working of creation". That the elect were chosen and then the means of their election was determined. This is damnable nonsense. God's choice in the Elect was His choice in Himself. Namely. In Christ Jesus. That Christ Jesus was predetermined and the "elect" were corporally elected in Christ Jesus. That the center of God's Universe and the center or all creative activity was God's CHOSEN. His darling Son. He "choice". The ONLY... Choice. I can't help you don't understand how this works. Its beyond you. You don't care to know because you have already chosen your system and you will defend it at all cost. The center of your theology is all about YOU. Christ is nothing more than the "means" for you to boast of God's choice in you.

By the way. God didn't choose YOU before the foundation of the world. You have absolutely no evidence to prove that He did. Or that He chose anyone but His Son before the foundation of the world.

The doctrine of Calvinism has replaced God's choice in His Son with some supposed choice in "YOU".

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm sure if only I'd go to that site and read the Arminean talking points, I'd be convinced, all Biblical evidence to the contrary aside.
Sorry, I don't feel drawn to the site and I choose to exercise my free will to stay away. 
And, as to pride, it seems those on the man centered Arminian side of this fence elevate themselves.

Coward. Plain and simple. You're a coward. You can't defend what you've said so you won't take the time to read a single "page" of writing.

Greg Boyd isn't a Arminian. He is Open Theist. In fact, he is one of the primary drivers of the Theology.

For a man that has been in the ministry for many many years..... You sure aren't very knowledgeable when it comes to things around you. It would look like you would already know all of this. It wouldn't take this "amateur" to teaching you anything.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I'm sure if only I'd go to that site and read the Arminean talking points, I'd be convinced, all Biblical evidence to the contrary aside.
Sorry, I don't feel drawn to the site and I choose to exercise my free will to stay away. 
And, as to pride, it seems those on the man centered Arminian side of this fence elevate themselves.

Coward. Plain and simple. You're a coward. You can't defend what you've said so you won't take the time to read a single "page" of writing.

Greg Boyd isn't a Arminian. He is Open Theist. In fact, he is one of the primary drivers of the Theology.

For a man that has been in the ministry for many many years..... You sure aren't very knowledgeable when it comes to things around you. It would look like you would already know all of this. It wouldn't take this "amateur" to teaching you anything.

Oh please!
I have already told you why I do and shall continue to call you Arminean....the counter to you using Calvinist to anyone who believes the doctrine of salvation by grace.

And I am familiar with open theism and incompatibilism. Perhaps you do think God is in heaven fretting over what man will do next....

I have stated Biblical texts and even the correct use and application of the word draw in my previous post...to which you brilliantly countered with...read this guy! No, thank you...I am not drawn to do such....heard it before!

I note that, in the absence of being able to defend your man centered position by Biblical means, you choose the FFF default, name calling and belittling the Position of Pastor.

And, you call us 'Calvinists' prideful!
Oh! The irony! 

 

[rsc2a]

In short, CU is a pantheist.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In short, CU is a pantheist.

In short, RSC2A is a liar..... and "an accuser of the brethren".

 

[rsc2a]

And you're off your meds.

 

[subllibrm]

It is clear. I know you're new to what I have said in past, so I will say it again. I'll be short and sweet with it, but do not answer me unless you want to deal specifically with each individual part of my statements.

1. God is Time. God is not absent Time. God is Time. God brings order to chaos. The absence of Time is nothing but chaos.

Okay, not a hill I would die on anyway.

2. "Eternity" or the word "Eternal" does not indicate the absence of Time but rather the endless measure of Time. To say that God does not exist within Time is contrary to the Scriptures and nothing more than a trick of the devil. C.S. Lewis taught this crap and everyone bought it... "hook line and sinker".

Ibid

3. God does things in "ORDER". We call this "cause and effect". Time at its fundamentalist point.... is nothing more than "cause and effect". I will accept the idea that the "experience" of time is different for many. However, you can not say that Time isn't sequential. There is a "sequence" to events.....even with God.

Ibid

4. The Calvinist view of Election places the "elect" at the center of God's Universe. Or God's "working of creation". That the elect were chosen and then the means of their election was determined. This is damnable nonsense. God's choice in the Elect was His choice in Himself. Namely. In Christ Jesus. That Christ Jesus was predetermined and the "elect" were corporally elected in Christ Jesus. That the center of God's Universe and the center or all creative activity was God's CHOSEN. His darling Son. He "choice". The ONLY... Choice. I can't help you don't understand how this works. Its beyond you. You don't care to know because you have already chosen your system and you will defend it at all cost. The center of your theology is all about YOU. Christ is nothing more than the "means" for you to boast of God's choice in you.

The bolded is followed by assertions that I have never heard from anyone but you. I do not know who you think I have "learned" from but I have never heard anything taught remotely near to what you are saying and wouldn't believe it if I did.

God is at the center of everything, eternity to eternity. The same yesterday, today and forever. That He chose to save anyone (or allows anyone to be saved) is to His Glory and Praise. All of history points to these truths and Jesus Christ is preeminent in all of history.

I do not know what more I can confess of my faith and total reliance upon Him and His finished work at Calvary. I can boast in nothing but His Grace and Mercy toward me.

Now you will accuse me of lying and obfuscating and twisting and whatever else falls onto your keyboard. That is fine but my confession is here for all to see and I am not ashamed of it.

By the way. God didn't choose YOU before the foundation of the world. You have absolutely no evidence to prove that He did. Or that He chose anyone but His Son before the foundation of the world.

We disagree on how to understand that passage. I can live with that. Why can't you?

The doctrine of Calvinism has replaced God's choice in His Son with some supposed choice in "YOU".

You have declared yourself to not be Arminian and I decline to wear the label Calvinist. Therefor I declare your point, as it does not apply to me, moot.

You may now go find someone who actually believes that things that you allege and have a jolly old row with them.

Peace out.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm sure if only I'd go to that site and read the Arminean talking points, I'd be convinced, all Biblical evidence to the contrary aside.
Sorry, I don't feel drawn to the site and I choose to exercise my free will to stay away. 
And, as to pride, it seems those on the man centered Arminian side of this fence elevate themselves.

Coward. Plain and simple. You're a coward. You can't defend what you've said so you won't take the time to read a single "page" of writing.

Greg Boyd isn't a Arminian. He is Open Theist. In fact, he is one of the primary drivers of the Theology.

For a man that has been in the ministry for many many years..... You sure aren't very knowledgeable when it comes to things around you. It would look like you would already know all of this. It wouldn't take this "amateur" to teaching you anything.

Oh please!
I have already told you why I do and shall continue to call you Arminean....the counter to you using Calvinist to anyone who believes the doctrine of salvation by grace.

And I am familiar with open theism and incompatibilism. Perhaps you do think God is in heaven fretting over what man will do next....

Man is powerless. Why would I think God is afraid of what man might do next? God is more powerful than all. Open Theist believe this. Arminians believe this. It takes a dishonest Calvinist like yourself to make such a claim.

I have stated Biblical texts and even the correct use and application of the word draw in my previous post...to which you brilliantly countered with...read this guy! No, thank you...I am not drawn to do such....heard it before!

Please.....You posted a less that a 100 word response. Don't tell me you exhaustively dealt with the issue!!!

Tell you what. I can paste it here if you like? Will that please you?.... and no. You haven't heard them all.

I note that, in the absence of being able to defend your man centered position by Biblical means, you choose the FFF default, name calling and belittling the Position of Pastor.

Sure... Sure... Sure...

You call an Open Theist an Arminian and then try to claim you already knew better. Please. You made a mistake. Admit to it. You're belittling yourself. You don't need my help.

And, you call us 'Calvinists' prideful!
Oh! The irony! 

God chose "YOU". That is your message. It has always been your message. Hyper Calvinism is the natural outgrowth of what you believe about "Election".

 

[subllibrm]

In short, CU is a pantheist.

In short, RSC2A is a liar..... and "an accuser of the brethren".

Pot meet kettle.

Oh that's right, you don't believe any of us are true brethren.  8)

 

[subllibrm]

God chose "YOU". That is your message. It has always been your message. Hyper Calvinism is the natural outgrowth of what you believe about "Election".

YOU "chose" God. That is your message. It has always been your message. Good thing you stepped across that line, I am sure that was a relief to Him.

See, I can play that game too.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The bolded is followed by assertions that I have never heard from anyone but you. I do not know who you think I have "learned" from but I have never heard anything taught remotely near to what you are saying and wouldn't believe it if I did.

God is at the center of everything, eternity to eternity. The same yesterday, today and forever. That He chose to save anyone (or allows anyone to be saved) is to His Glory and Praise. All of history points to these truths and Jesus Christ is preeminent in all of history.

I should have known you wouldn't deal with everything I said. Your "ibid" answer to what I wrote is silly.

Well. That is certainly telling. You really aren't as proficient in Theology as you think you are. While I have believed this for a very long time. Long before I every read a theology essay on "Corporate Election". I'm not alone. One of the key teachings of what many call "Corporate Election" is "Christocentric Election". In fact, this is really is a more accurate description of Election than "Corporate Election". This teaching stand in direct contrast to the teachings of "individual election". If you don't know this, then I really shouldn't even be wasting my time trying to discuss it. You obviously are unskilled and unlearned in the matter. Such is the way with the typical "side chair theologian".... that reads a few Google articles and comes on a forum and pretends "he's never heard such nonsense". Your buddy "rsca" said as much. That he had never "heard" of such. Well.... if you'd spent much of any time in Theology..... You would have more than "heard" of it.

I do not know what more I can confess of my faith and total reliance upon Him and His finished work at Calvary. I can boast in nothing but His Grace and Mercy toward me.

Boast of Him all you want. Please. Do it more and more and more. Never stop.... BUT... PLEASE... Change your theology and prove its all about Him and nothing about you. The very core of your belief in Election is based on YOU. You can boast of God all you want. Your theology says differently.

Now you will accuse me of lying and obfuscating and twisting and whatever else falls onto your keyboard. That is fine but my confession is here for all to see and I am not ashamed of it.

Your belief hasn't changed. You still believe the same nonsense. By all means, keep boasting of God. If you can't change your beliefs about Election, then please. Stop teaching it. It doesn't matter anyway to you. You believe "what will be....will be"!!!

We disagree on how to understand that passage. I can live with that. Why can't you?

Its very important how you believe this verse and how you apply it. Let me share another...

Col 1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

You don't believe that Christ has the preeminence in God's choice in Election. You believe... "YOU" did.

Let me go a little further and I'm going to stop. Its not worth my time to get based for what I'm writing. Notice the phrase "firstborn from the dead". Let me make the claim that this is.... God's Eternal intent in Creation. That God's intent and desire and goal is that Christ would be the "firstborn from the dead". That His creative actions was to make a people..... Just like His Son. Not to make His Son.... Just like YOU!!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

In short, CU is a pantheist.

In short, RSC2A is a liar..... and "an accuser of the brethren".

Pot meet kettle.

Oh that's right, you don't believe any of us are true brethren.  8)

I never called you a "pantheist"? Do you even now what the word means?

I have never questioned any of you about your position in Christ. Rsca has always questioned mine from the very time he came here. You don't know anything about what you're saying.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

In short, CU is a pantheist.

In short, RSC2A is a liar..... and "an accuser of the brethren".

Pot meet kettle.

Oh that's right, you don't believe any of us are true brethren.  8)

I never called you a "pantheist"? Do you even now what the word means?

I have never questioned any of you about your position in Christ. Rsca has always questioned mine from the very time he came here. You don't know anything about what you're saying.

Maybe you need to go back over to I am an angel's forum and cool off...over there, you might be the most intelligent poster, since you'd be the only poster.

 

[praise_yeshua]

God chose "YOU". That is your message. It has always been your message. Hyper Calvinism is the natural outgrowth of what you believe about "Election".

YOU "chose" God. That is your message. It has always been your message. Good thing you stepped across that line, I am sure that was a relief to Him.

See, I can play that game too.

Choosing God of my own freewill.... because of what He has done for ALL of humanity... Has nothing to do with God choosing "YOU" and EXCLUDING others in His choice.

Honest question. When was the last time you read the 17th chapter of Acts?

Pay attention to these words.....

Act 17:27  That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

In short, CU is a pantheist.

Nonsense.  I see no evidence that CU believes in Pan, the god of the wild, shepherds and flocks, nature of mountain wilds, hunting, and rustic music, and companion of the nymphs. 

Ummm... or do you, CU?

 

[subllibrm]

In short, CU is a pantheist.

Nonsense.  I see no evidence that CU believes in Pan, the god of the wild, shepherds and flocks, nature of mountain wilds, hunting, and rustic music, and companion of the nymphs. 

Ummm... or do you, CU?

I though it was that guy on the late night commercials who plays the pan pipe.