TULIP: The good, bad and ugly

[Ransom]

For Christians there is no such thing as Calvinism. That secular theology belongs to the world

Well, thank you for contributing nothing useful to the discussion.

 

[Ransom]

You all misunderstood what I said.

No, we understood what you wrote, which you have now stated was the exact opposite of what you meant. That's your fault.

Your penchant for posting nonsense and drivel continues unimpeded.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You all misunderstood what I said. [./quote]

Well, duh. It's not like you wrote the diametric opposite of what you meant, or anything.  :

You did mess up the quote. I messed up. I admit it. I could have said it better.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I have been asked to speak on the issue of Calvinism to a group of Calvinists in defense of free will.  I thought we could have an informal presentation of ideas and issues here.

I am free will, but wholly respect the Providence of God.

Anyone care to discuss the TULIPs truths and errors?

If you argue against TULIP then that's an argument against TULIP, not Calvinism (or predestination, doctrines of grace, etc).

Interesting point.  Are you making the argument that most of Calvin's teachings are good,  while some people have problems with the tennants of predestination?

No, I'm making the argument that "Calvinism" is just shorthand for predestination, God's sovereignty, etc.  It isn't necessarily TULIP, which was just a rebuttal to Arminian points, not something Calvin invented. 

The doctrines preceded Calvin.  Luther went into greater detail than Calvin, and Luther referenced Augustine.  And both Luther and Augustine got their doctrines from the Scriptures. 

In other words, try to refute scripture, not Calvin or TULIP.

This really is my goal.  My real purpose is to promote acting out the great commission through evangelistic outreach, rather than the passive approach of waiting for someone to ask you about eternity that is dominating many churches.  The hurdle to cross seems to be Calvin's TULIP.

With one shot at this, I want to speak to the positives of evangelism vs the lassiez faire approach that is the result of predestination.  Of course, I will have to acknowledge the correctness of much of Calvin while issuing Bible reasons for disagreeing with Calvin's theories of predestination.

Consider this...

Jonathan Edwards.., Calvinist great awakening
Charles Spurgeon. .. Calvinist
John Gill..... huge outreach in eva
Robert Ketchum
.... and on and on...

In the 1800s and recent history shows that Arminian have died out and struggled. Their only comeback, in the 70s, was to enlarge their churches by consolidating believers around issues like KJV onlyism and heightened emphases on externals while promoting a gospel designed to be transferred to others by praying a simple prayer.

I am involved with Calvinist who plant churches. Churches growing because of redeemed souls.

If you want excellent church planting guidance, the Presbyterians PCA have one of the best programs.

The evangelism strawman does not hold up historically or today.

Calvinism = evangelism
Arminianism = consolidation

Man.... what a load of garbage. This might just be the worst post I've ever seen from you.

For the record....

Many "Calvinists" are involved in KJVOism.

Europe has historically been Calvinist and European church ranks have been dwindling for centuries.

Yes. Calvinist plant churches....but Saying "Calvinist" churches grow because of "converts" is a down right LIE. You don't know the elect nor more than anyone else. Its self serving to take your branch of "evangelism" and claim success while claiming others success isn't real. In fact, you were recently involved in a thread in the forum about the SB allow tongue talkers in their mist. You KNOW, this is in response to the overwhelming numbers of Christian converts coming out of the charismatic churches. Which, are mostly Arminian.

For the record. John Gill was a hyper-Calvinism in evangelism.

 

[FSSL]

Calvinism = evangelism
Arminianism = consolidation

You need to get saved. Seriously.

Quit bloviating. I didn't make this up. Church historians have noted this.

 

[FSSL]

For the record. John Gill was a hyper-Calvinism in evangelism.

Yeah... I know.... YET... he had one of the largest churches that grew upon converts.

 

[FSSL]

Yep! A Calvinist! Named the "father of modern missions." Imagine that!

Historical revisionism has gripped the IFB mind.

 

[cubanito]

OK, and now for a very pertinent tangent:

1- Binaca, are you female? If yes:

2- Are ther to be men in the group you are speaking to? If yes:

3- Is this a Church setting, secular or what precisely?

JR. oh yes, he is going there with this line of questions!

 

[T-Bone]

OK, and now for a very pertinent tangent:

1- Binaca, are you female? If yes:

2- Are ther to be men in the group you are speaking to? If yes:

3- Is this a Church setting, secular or what precisely?

JR. oh yes, he is going there with this line of questions!

Can't see why any of this is relevant ...or any of your business?

 

[FSSL]

1- Binaca, are you female?

Anonymity is sacred ground on FFF.

 

[rsc2a]

1- Binaca, are you female?

Anonymity is sacred ground on FFF.

Probably because you aren't a genius. You should stop acting so high and mighty and join all us other neanderthals.

 

[Biker]

Quit bloviating. I didn't make this up. Church historians have noted this.

Oh gimme a break. I never said you made it up. I said you need to get saved.
I meant to quote your whole post, that was a mistake. Sorry
Quoting my entire post w/ scripture referenced keeps it honest. One sentence is useless.

Keep your BIG words like “bloviating” I won’t look up any definitions so you can feel  smarter.
I can be as dumb as a post…but it won’t make your secular belief system the way to salvation. 
I don’t care how many historians back your beliefs up, you are way off track.

Thank God my church got out of this hyper calvinism stuff pretty quickly after I joined. Cause I said I’d be gone if it continued. And assumed such. I stopped the taped messages where it sounded like some Donkey was being a jerk wad. Thinking he was so special to be “the elect”. Alright I said it in a nicer way… had to in order to keep my new cycling partner (aka the main Donkey) even if I quit the church. The ass is no longer an ass but one of my best friends. Ok he still is a bit….but it’s pretty much limited to cycling where as my antics remain all over the board. So there is hope   It worked out well. Same sermons, just sligihtly re-worded while keeping the truth intact.
Contrary to what the internet describes Calvinists to be-stubborn and addicted to elevating self, that was not my experience with any of the Elders. All are friends of ours
Anyhow…8 people survived the first tribulation, the flood. All Noah's bunch. Everyone else followed their own belief system doing what was right in their own eyes. Mormonism, Catholicism, KJVO Cult, Calvinism, who knows what can be conjured up now..its endless. Noah got drunk so sin isn’t the issue, it will be atoned for considering scripture is your sole authority and all your experiences are filtered through it’s truths. Not filtered through a secular belief system. No Armenians aren’t any better, that was a joke. I probably relate better to Calvinists.

If I seem like a pain in the rump I surely am but there are very few people who were saved during the flood…and who will be saved in the next tribulation. That's TRUTH. And I avoided scripture to not offend you. The road is NARROW and few will find it. Do all you can, and tell others to ensure they are on the right path.Scripture is the only way leading to that narrow road

.

 

[FSSL]

Quit bloviating. I didn't make this up. Church historians have noted this.

Oh gimme a break. I never said you made it up. I said you need to get saved.
I meant to quote your whole post, that was a mistake. Sorry
Quoting my entire post w/ scripture referenced keeps it honest. One sentence is useless.

Keep your BIG words like “bloviating” I won’t look up any definitions so you can feel  smarter.
I can be as dumb as a post…but it won’t make your secular belief system the way to salvation. 
I don’t care how many historians back your beliefs up, you are way off track.

Thank God my church got out of this hyper calvinism stuff pretty quickly after I joined. Cause I said I’d be gone if it continued. And assumed such. I stopped the taped messages where it sounded like some Donkey was being a jerk wad. Thinking he was so special to be “the elect”. Alright I said it in a nicer way… had to in order to keep my new cycling partner (aka the main Donkey) even if I quit the church. The ass is no longer an ass but one of my best friends. Ok he still is a bit….but it’s pretty much limited to cycling where as my antics remain all over the board. So there is hope   It worked out well. Same sermons, just sligihtly re-worded while keeping the truth intact.
Contrary to what the internet describes Calvinists to be-stubborn and addicted to elevating self, that was not my experience with any of the Elders. All are friends of ours
Anyhow…8 people survived the first tribulation, the flood. All Noah's bunch. Everyone else followed their own belief system doing what was right in their own eyes. Mormonism, Catholicism, KJVO Cult, Calvinism, who knows what can be conjured up now..its endless. Noah got drunk so sin isn’t the issue, it will be atoned for considering scripture is your sole authority and all your experiences are filtered through it’s truths. Not filtered through a secular belief system. No Armenians aren’t any better, that was a joke. I probably relate better to Calvinists.

If I seem like a pain in the rump I surely am but there are very few people who were saved during the flood…and who will be saved in the next tribulation. That's TRUTH. And I avoided scripture to not offend you. The road is NARROW and few will find it. Do all you can, and tell others to ensure they are on the right path.Scripture is the only way leading to that narrow road

.

"Bloviating" is a big word?

If expressing an opinion that is backed up by history and also expressed by historians makes me an unbeliever, you have another gospel.

I don't have to sit back and let Arminians suggest that Calvinists are lazy and apathetic to the gospel.

Man-centered theology kills churches. Just look at the IFB church movement. It's a "burned over district" to quote their hero - Finney.

 

[praise_yeshua]

For the record. John Gill was a hyper-Calvinism in evangelism.

Yeah... I know.... YET... he had one of the largest churches that grew upon converts.

You don't know the elect. Isolated or even group success... is no indication of God's approval. Gill converted some. HE... had some followers.

He also made several enemies among his kind. Those who opposed him. Some of them.... themselves.... very successful.

 

[rsc2a]

Biker has now promoted himself to Holy Spirit!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Quit bloviating. I didn't make this up. Church historians have noted this.

Oh gimme a break. I never said you made it up. I said you need to get saved.
I meant to quote your whole post, that was a mistake. Sorry
Quoting my entire post w/ scripture referenced keeps it honest. One sentence is useless.

Keep your BIG words like “bloviating” I won’t look up any definitions so you can feel  smarter.
I can be as dumb as a post…but it won’t make your secular belief system the way to salvation. 
I don’t care how many historians back your beliefs up, you are way off track.

Thank God my church got out of this hyper calvinism stuff pretty quickly after I joined. Cause I said I’d be gone if it continued. And assumed such. I stopped the taped messages where it sounded like some Donkey was being a jerk wad. Thinking he was so special to be “the elect”. Alright I said it in a nicer way… had to in order to keep my new cycling partner (aka the main Donkey) even if I quit the church. The ass is no longer an ass but one of my best friends. Ok he still is a bit….but it’s pretty much limited to cycling where as my antics remain all over the board. So there is hope   It worked out well. Same sermons, just sligihtly re-worded while keeping the truth intact.
Contrary to what the internet describes Calvinists to be-stubborn and addicted to elevating self, that was not my experience with any of the Elders. All are friends of ours
Anyhow…8 people survived the first tribulation, the flood. All Noah's bunch. Everyone else followed their own belief system doing what was right in their own eyes. Mormonism, Catholicism, KJVO Cult, Calvinism, who knows what can be conjured up now..its endless. Noah got drunk so sin isn’t the issue, it will be atoned for considering scripture is your sole authority and all your experiences are filtered through it’s truths. Not filtered through a secular belief system. No Armenians aren’t any better, that was a joke. I probably relate better to Calvinists.

If I seem like a pain in the rump I surely am but there are very few people who were saved during the flood…and who will be saved in the next tribulation. That's TRUTH. And I avoided scripture to not offend you. The road is NARROW and few will find it. Do all you can, and tell others to ensure they are on the right path.Scripture is the only way leading to that narrow road

.

"Bloviating" is a big word?

If expressing an opinion that is backed up by history and also expressed by historians makes me an unbeliever, you have another gospel.

I don't have to sit back and let Arminians suggest that Calvinists are lazy and apathetic to the gospel.

Man-centered theology kills churches. Just look at the IFB church movement. It's a "burned over district" to quote their hero - Finney.

Like Calvinism isn't a "man-centered" religion. What hypocrisy. You might as well write Calvin's name over most Presbyterian churches in existence.... and a large portion of Reformed Baptist churches.

 

[subllibrm]

You might as well write Calvin's name over most Presbyterian churches in existence.... and a large portion of Reformed Baptist churches.

Not much point in making the effort since you already have it covered.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

 

[Bob H]

I have been asked to speak on the issue of Calvinism to a group of Calvinists in defense of free will......

If you see a stake in the ground with a pile of wood around it, you might wanna keep your car running

Ain't it?

This is supposed to be a civil peesentation of the opposing view for consideration towards missions and evangelism.

Should I fee like Luther invited to counsel?

As the great Foghorn Leghorn said to the little chicken hawk " It's a joke son". I just thought I'd add a little spice to the thread

 

[Bob H]

I am, a Bible following Christian.

Why deny the label of Arminian?

You're not as dumb as I look. You know why non Calvinistic Baptist don't like the term.

I am, a Bible following Christian.

Since you reject TULIP, which really was a counter-point to Arminius' FIVE remonstrances...

If I may digress, Arminius was dead as a door knob when they were written.