TULIP: The good, bad and ugly

Binaca Chugger

Binaca Chugger

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I have been asked to speak on the issue of Calvinism to a group of Calvinists in defense of free will.  I thought we could have an informal presentation of ideas and issues here.

I am free will, but wholly respect the Providence of God.

Anyone care to discuss the TULIPs truths and errors?
 
Calvinism started falling apart from me when really delving into the "L" (Limited Atonement):

1. Every man including the non-elect, is commanded to believe in the Gospel or be eternally damned.

2. The "Gospel" (as I had believed at the time) included Jesus dying for the sins of mankind.

3. "Limited Atonement" states that Jesus died only for the elect.

4. Those who are not elect are commanded by God to believe Jesus died for them individually when in essence, He did not.

5. In essence. those non-elect are not given a legitimate option to accept the "Gospel" so it would be unjust for them to be damned because the offer/command wasn't even genuine. In theory, the non-elect is being damned for not accepting God's lie to him.

Let's use Hitler (everyone's villain) as an example.

Calvinist view: Hitler is/will be in hell because of his sins, enduring God's wrath. Jesus could not have borne the punishment for his sins nor paid the price for his sins. If Jesus had done that, then both He AND Hitler suffered the payment for Hitler's sins. It would be unjust of God to punish Hitler because Jesus paid Hitler's punishment.

The other view: Hitler is/will be in hell damned for rejecting the Gospel that Jesus died for his sins. But suppose Jesus didn't die for Hitler. It would be unjust to punish Hitler for rejecting a Gospel that was never applied to him. In essence, if your name is "John" and you are commanded to obey the instructions of a confidential letter addressed to "Bob" or you will be jailed, how is it just to be imprisoned for not going along with a letter that was not addressed to nor meant for you to begin with?

IMHO, both positions point to God as being "unjust". But if we accept the "Gospel" that Jesus taught instead of the one Paul taught, there is a possibility we just might come to a different conclusion about God. :)
 
Consider emphasizing/discussing the eternality of God. If He lives outside of time then it puts a whole new perspective on foreknowledge and predestination...
 
Binaca Chugger said:
I have been asked to speak on the issue of Calvinism to a group of Calvinists in defense of free will.  I thought we could have an informal presentation of ideas and issues here.

I am free will, but wholly respect the Providence of God.

Anyone care to discuss the TULIPs truths and errors?
Click to expand...

If you argue against TULIP then that's an argument against TULIP, not Calvinism (or predestination, doctrines of grace, etc). 
 
The strength of TULIP:

God chooses the elect and His call cannot be denied. The Christ died to save His people from their sins.

The weakness of TULIP:

Man chooses God and his choice is determinative. The Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

;) :)
 
Nope. Since you're going to be presenting to a room full of Calvinists, I think I'll just sit back and let the free-willies make my case for me. ;)
 
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In our area TULIPS are one of the very first flowers to come up in the Springtime! However, they don't last very long.
 
Binaca Chugger said:
I have been asked to speak on the issue of Calvinism to a group of Calvinists in defense of free will......
Click to expand...


:)


If you see a stake in the ground with a pile of wood around it, you might wanna keep your car running







 
Bob H said:
Binaca Chugger said:
I have been asked to speak on the issue of Calvinism to a group of Calvinists in defense of free will......
Click to expand...


:)


If you see a stake in the ground with a pile of wood around it, you might wanna keep your car running
Click to expand...

Are you alluding to Michael Servetus?

Religious disagreements bring out ones inner murderer.  :(

440px-Michael_Servetus.jpg

 
Yes. Please remember to inform your audience that John Calvin had Michael Servetus killed, and that is an indisputable historical fact. *snigger*
 
Ransom said:
Yes. Please remember to inform your audience that John Calvin had Michael Servetus killed, and that is an indisputable historical fact. *snigger*
Click to expand...

A little known fact is that he killed Servetus himself, and then tied the dead body to the stake to make it look like he was still alive when he was burned.  Sort of like a "weekend at Mikey's".

 
Binaca Chugger said:
I have been asked to speak on the issue of Calvinism to a group of Calvinists in defense of free will.  I thought we could have an informal presentation of ideas and issues here.

I am free will, but wholly respect the Providence of God.

Anyone care to discuss the TULIPs truths and errors?
Click to expand...
Are you going to identify yourself as an Arminian?
 
Tom Brennan said:
Consider emphasizing/discussing the eternality of God. If He lives outside of time then it puts a whole new perspective on foreknowledge and predestination...
Click to expand...
Care to expound?
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Binaca Chugger said:
I have been asked to speak on the issue of Calvinism to a group of Calvinists in defense of free will.  I thought we could have an informal presentation of ideas and issues here.

I am free will, but wholly respect the Providence of God.

Anyone care to discuss the TULIPs truths and errors?
Click to expand...

If you argue against TULIP then that's an argument against TULIP, not Calvinism (or predestination, doctrines of grace, etc).
Click to expand...
Interesting point.  Are you making the argument that most of Calvin's teachings are good,  while some people have problems with the tennants of predestination?
 
Ransom said:
Nope. Since you're going to be presenting to a room full of Calvinists, I think I'll just sit back and let the free-willies make my case for me. ;)
Click to expand...
Stinkin' Calvie.  ;)
 
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