TULIP: The good, bad and ugly

[Binaca Chugger]

It seems as though even the TULIP Calvinists on this forum believe in evangelism.  Can someone tell me how the TULIP and evangelism do not contradict each other?

 

[Binaca Chugger]

My opportunity to present to an informal gathering of ministers is drawing nigh.  Does anyone have a different thought as to why people (laity or leadership) do not share their faith on a regular basis?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

It seems as though even the TULIP Calvinists on this forum believe in evangelism.  Can someone tell me how the TULIP and evangelism do not contradict each other?

It's like a newspaper running a story that there's a cure for cancer.  They know this good news will only affect certain people, but it gets told to everyone because the newspaper editors don't know who is affected and who isn't. 

Like any analogy, it isn't perfect, but maybe it will shed some light on why Calvinists evangelize.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why do you continually refuse to deal with everything I wrote? This is another dishonest Calvinist tactic.

Because I do not have time to address every single point you raise. I just look for the main point and deal with that.

However, you continuely  make it about yourself.

No. I am not the one who says my election involves an action of accepting.

you igniore the fact that you believe that God chose you and rejected others just like you. You refuse to acknowledge this presents a scenario where you are better choice than those rejected.

This was not brought up. In fact, your view of Calvinism is strange.

I simply accepted something freely offered to all. Something I could not do myself. How do you even begin to believe this places focus on something I did resulting in my salvation?

If you cannot "simply accept" by yourself, then what happened? Prevenient grace or regeneration preceding grace?

I never said you couldn't "simply accept" by yourself. Of course I believe you can. Now, its not all about yourself then. The message of the Gospel IS the bridge between the Spiritual world and the carnal world. That message has its work in all men. It does not force anyone and it does not transgress the freewill of the individual. In fact, I have said it here many times that freewill is the only answer to all questions found in theology. Remove freewill and you have nothing. NOTHING. Since Calvinism removes freewill, it is NOTHING.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I simply accepted something freely offered to all. Something I could not do myself. How do you even begin to believe this places focus on something I did resulting in my salvation?

What couldn't you do yourself?  Accept?  Save yourself? 

Let me ask you this - if you simply accepted something freely offered to all, then why did you accept it, but your neighbor didn't?  What's different about you that you would make the right decision, but he'd make the wrong one?

You misunderstood what I said.

The message of the Gospel confirms the truth of God to humanity. It is then, the responsibility of that individual to accept or reject what is freely offered to all. Anyone that has heard the Gospel has everything they need to accept God's offer.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

It seems as though even the TULIP Calvinists on this forum believe in evangelism.  Can someone tell me how the TULIP and evangelism do not contradict each other?

It's like a newspaper running a story that there's a cure for cancer.  They know this good news will only affect certain people, but it gets told to everyone because the newspaper editors don't know who is affected and who isn't. 

Like any analogy, it isn't perfect, but maybe it will shed some light on why Calvinists evangelize.

Interesting analogy.  I know that I am not going to change their ideas on Calvinism.  I want to affect their willingness to do the work of evangelism through their local church.  I want to stir them to stir their people to be willing to share their faith.

Still, this thought process, would tend to a lack of urgency.  I have been met with the following responses from various people:

1.  There is no need for me to witness.  If they are chosen, they are chosen.
2.  Haughtiness.  I am chosen and you are not.  Stinks to be you.
3.  I like to tell people about my salvation.  However, I know that the Bible and God's grace can have no affect at all for the majority of people I share with.

I think 1 and 2 are obviously wrong.  I think point 3 is what you are illustrating.  I cannot accept that the knowledge of God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Gospel and the Bible cannot have any affect at all for the majority of people.  2 Peter 3:9.

 

[prophet]

There seems to be some similarity here to the Jehovah's Witness, who believe only a predetermined number will enter heaven, so they strive to be one of the number.  The Calvinists believe the saved are already chosen, and each believe that they are the chosen.  Some Calvinists believes nothing he does can affect another's status as chosen or rejected, yet believe in evangelism.  How do these two ideals not oppose each other?

Two conflicting issues? You have multiple issues in that paragraph and they are different, altogether.

JWs? Nice try... but the are not even closely associated with the biblical idea of God's election to salvation.

All  Calvinists believe that believers were chosen in eternity past.

The Calvinist does believe God is the One who regenerates fallen man. The Calvinist prays, "God, please save my friend!"

How does the Arminian pray for the salvation or others?

Lol@ "Eternity past".

Haklo

 

[FSSL]

I pray that God would continue to soften their hearts and impress upon the unbeliever their need for repentance and faith in Christ by orchestrating all of the events in their life to bring them to a point of realization of their need.  This brokenness may come through the realization of love or brokenness  I pray that God would allow a Christian the right opportunity with wisdom of words to show the unbeliever their need for Christ.

I like to ask this question, because it highlights the disconnect that thr nonCalvinist has. You prayed just like the Calvinist.

God must regenerate the unsaved so they can respond in faith.

 

[subllibrm]

I pray that God would continue to soften their hearts and impress upon the unbeliever their need for repentance and faith in Christ by orchestrating all of the events in their life to bring them to a point of realization of their need.  This brokenness may come through the realization of love or brokenness  I pray that God would allow a Christian the right opportunity with wisdom of words to show the unbeliever their need for Christ.

I like to ask this question, because it highlights the disconnect that thr nonCalvinist has. You prayed just like the Calvinist.

God must regenerate the unsaved so they can respond in faith.

Doh!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Still, this thought process, would tend to a lack of urgency. 

What's wrong with that?  Urgency (worry) doesn't solve anything.  Just be obedient and strive to do the right thing.

I have been met with the following responses from various people:

1.  There is no need for me to witness.  If they are chosen, they are chosen.

I already showed that this is a non-sequitur.  We witness for reasons other than the need to witness. 

2.  Haughtiness.  I am chosen and you are not.  Stinks to be you.

Never encountered anyone with this attitude.  And it makes no sense.  How do you know the other person is not chosen?  I was an anti-Christian atheist.  Anyone who assumed I was not chosen at that time would have been wrong.

3.  I like to tell people about my salvation.  However, I know that the Bible and God's grace can have no affect at all for the majority of people I share with.

Again, never encountered this attitude. 

I think 1 and 2 are obviously wrong.  I think point 3 is what you are illustrating.  I cannot accept that the knowledge of God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Gospel and the Bible cannot have any affect at all for the majority of people.  2 Peter 3:9.

I believe it affects everyone.  It may not have a salvific effect on everyone, but it affects everyone in ways that work according to God's will. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I pray that God would continue to soften their hearts and impress upon the unbeliever their need for repentance and faith in Christ by orchestrating all of the events in their life to bring them to a point of realization of their need.  This brokenness may come through the realization of love or brokenness  I pray that God would allow a Christian the right opportunity with wisdom of words to show the unbeliever their need for Christ.

I like to ask this question, because it highlights the disconnect that thr nonCalvinist has. You prayed just like the Calvinist.

God must regenerate the unsaved so they can respond in faith.

Regeneration occurs at salvation, not apart from it.  God works (Providence) through events in our life to bring us to a point of realization (Holy Spirit Conviction).  The individual must make the decision of repentance and faith.

 

[rsc2a]

I pray that God would continue to soften their hearts and impress upon the unbeliever their need for repentance and faith in Christ by orchestrating all of the events in their life to bring them to a point of realization of their need.  This brokenness may come through the realization of love or brokenness  I pray that God would allow a Christian the right opportunity with wisdom of words to show the unbeliever their need for Christ.

I like to ask this question, because it highlights the disconnect that thr nonCalvinist has. You prayed just like the Calvinist.

God must regenerate the unsaved so they can respond in faith.

Regeneration occurs at salvation, not apart from it.  God works (Providence) through events in our life to bring us to a point of realization (Holy Spirit Conviction).  The individual must make the decision of repentance and faith.

The obvious question: what is salvation?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I pray that God would continue to soften their hearts and impress upon the unbeliever their need for repentance and faith in Christ by orchestrating all of the events in their life to bring them to a point of realization of their need.  This brokenness may come through the realization of love or brokenness  I pray that God would allow a Christian the right opportunity with wisdom of words to show the unbeliever their need for Christ.

God must regenerate the unsaved so they can respond in faith.

Total absolute nonsense. Prove it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I pray that God would continue to soften their hearts and impress upon the unbeliever their need for repentance and faith in Christ by orchestrating all of the events in their life to bring them to a point of realization of their need.  This brokenness may come through the realization of love or brokenness  I pray that God would allow a Christian the right opportunity with wisdom of words to show the unbeliever their need for Christ.

I like to ask this question, because it highlights the disconnect that thr nonCalvinist has. You prayed just like the Calvinist.

God must regenerate the unsaved so they can respond in faith.

Regeneration occurs at salvation, not apart from it.  God works (Providence) through events in our life to bring us to a point of realization (Holy Spirit Conviction).  The individual must make the decision of repentance and faith.

The obvious question: what is salvation?

Its obvious it means something entirely different to you. Tell us how you got "saved"?

 

[Bob H]

I pray that God would continue to soften their hearts and impress upon the unbeliever their need for repentance and faith in Christ by orchestrating all of the events in their life to bring them to a point of realization of their need.  This brokenness may come through the realization of love or brokenness  I pray that God would allow a Christian the right opportunity with wisdom of words to show the unbeliever their need for Christ.

God must regenerate the unsaved so they can respond in faith.

Total absolute nonsense. Prove it.

It's called the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Conviction always comes before conversion. No conviction, no conversion.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I pray that God would continue to soften their hearts and impress upon the unbeliever their need for repentance and faith in Christ by orchestrating all of the events in their life to bring them to a point of realization of their need.  This brokenness may come through the realization of love or brokenness  I pray that God would allow a Christian the right opportunity with wisdom of words to show the unbeliever their need for Christ.

God must regenerate the unsaved so they can respond in faith.

Total absolute nonsense. Prove it.

It's called the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Conviction always comes before conversion. No conviction, no conversion.

Conviction = regeneration?

Nonsense. There have been many a person that has faced conviction and never been converted. The writer of Hebrews talked of this in Hebrews 6.

I noticed you didn't post any references from Scripture.... I wonder that is....  :

 

[rsc2a]

I pray that God would continue to soften their hearts and impress upon the unbeliever their need for repentance and faith in Christ by orchestrating all of the events in their life to bring them to a point of realization of their need.  This brokenness may come through the realization of love or brokenness  I pray that God would allow a Christian the right opportunity with wisdom of words to show the unbeliever their need for Christ.

I like to ask this question, because it highlights the disconnect that thr nonCalvinist has. You prayed just like the Calvinist.

God must regenerate the unsaved so they can respond in faith.

Regeneration occurs at salvation, not apart from it.  God works (Providence) through events in our life to bring us to a point of realization (Holy Spirit Conviction).  The individual must make the decision of repentance and faith.

The obvious question: what is salvation?

Its obvious it means something entirely different to you. Tell us how you got "saved"?

I was saved. I am being saved. I will be saved. Lots of ways. But not by childbirth.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I pray that God would continue to soften their hearts and impress upon the unbeliever their need for repentance and faith in Christ by orchestrating all of the events in their life to bring them to a point of realization of their need.  This brokenness may come through the realization of love or brokenness  I pray that God would allow a Christian the right opportunity with wisdom of words to show the unbeliever their need for Christ.

I like to ask this question, because it highlights the disconnect that thr nonCalvinist has. You prayed just like the Calvinist.

God must regenerate the unsaved so they can respond in faith.

Regeneration occurs at salvation, not apart from it.  God works (Providence) through events in our life to bring us to a point of realization (Holy Spirit Conviction).  The individual must make the decision of repentance and faith.

The obvious question: what is salvation?

Its obvious it means something entirely different to you. Tell us how you got "saved"?

I was saved. I am being saved. I will be saved. Lots of ways. But not by childbirth.

You do love circular, cliched generalities! 

 

[rsc2a]

I'm just quoting Bible.

 

[Bob H]

I pray that God would continue to soften their hearts and impress upon the unbeliever their need for repentance and faith in Christ by orchestrating all of the events in their life to bring them to a point of realization of their need.  This brokenness may come through the realization of love or brokenness  I pray that God would allow a Christian the right opportunity with wisdom of words to show the unbeliever their need for Christ.

God must regenerate the unsaved so they can respond in faith.

Total absolute nonsense. Prove it.

It's called the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Conviction always comes before conversion. No conviction, no conversion.

Conviction = regeneration?

Nonsense. There have been many a person that has faced conviction and never been converted. The writer of Hebrews talked of this in Hebrews 6.

I noticed you didn't post any references from Scripture.... I wonder that is....  :

I'll never learn....... You weren't the intended target. Go back to your Open Theism.