When was the last time you articulated the gospel to somebody?

[ALAYMAN]

Maybe you should back away from the computer......I never said you did.

Why are you taking these statement all personally? They were meant in general against those who practice an easy prayerism type gospel. I have no reason to believe that that is you.......sheesh.

ummm, sorry for misunderstanding you, but I think that you said this in direct response to my post....


It is my opinion, though, that you are asking if anybody has prompted a decision to receive the gospel...not just if anybody has articulated it.


Kinda hard for me not to assume you were talking about me when you said "you are asking...."

 

[Castor Muscular]

I honestly don't recall much detail.  All I remember is she said she believes she has to be a good person.  To get to heaven?  She didn't actually say that, but I think that's what she meant.  She pretty much only talked about what she believes rather than about what I told her.  That much I remember.

Yeah, sounds predictable, especially the "be good" part.  Of course that sounds like the average American pagan in many respects too.  The part about her ignoring what you said and attempting to indoctrinate you is eerily similar to my lone experience with witnessing to a Buddhist.  It was one of the most frustrating experiences I've had.  Of course that episode was complicated by the fact that the guy was oriental, and apparently had limited English language skills, so there may have been something lost in translation.  I just remember him saying that Buddhism had been around longer than Jesus.

I don't think she was trying to indoctrinate me at all.  She just seemed fixed in her beliefs.  And she didn't understand much English, either. 

 

[Castor Muscular]

ALAYMAN, you did ask this in your post:

When was the last time that the recipient of your presentation trusted the Savior?

So it wasn't ONLY a question about when you articulated the Gospel. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

I don't think she was trying to indoctrinate me at all.  She just seemed fixed in her beliefs.  And she didn't understand much English, either.

Well, I may be overstating what I perceived, but I didn't get the idea that he was open to honestly evaluating the claims of Christianity, even though he seemed at first to imply that he was willing to hear and think about the gospel.  It seemed he allowed me to talk so that he could tell me about what he believed.  Sort of quizzed me on how much I knew about his faith.  From what I've heard regarding many eastern faiths, they aren't real keen on brief witness encounters, but rather prefer extremely protracted discussions.  I was willing to submit to that notion too, but I don't think he wanted to have any more discussion unless he controlled the tone, tenor, and tempo.

 

[ALAYMAN]

ALAYMAN, you did ask this in your post:

When was the last time that the recipient of your presentation trusted the Savior?

So it wasn't ONLY a question about when you articulated the Gospel.

Right, but the nature of the question wasn't such that it implied that I think a person should use salesmanship.  That has to be imported into the question.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Yeah, sounds predictable, especially the "be good" part.  Of course that sounds like the average American pagan in many respects too.  [/quote]

And a lot of Christians...

[quote author=ALAYMAN]The part about her ignoring what you said and attempting to indoctrinate you is eerily similar to my lone experience with witnessing to a Buddhist.  It was one of the most frustrating experiences I've had.[/quote]

I've found that most Easterners I've associated with do not try to indoctrinate others. In fact, eastern religions generally aren't even evangelistic. It would be especially odd of a Buddhist to try to indoctrinate someone. Do you know what branch of Buddhism they followed?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]I just remember him saying that Buddhism had been around longer than Jesus.[/quote]

In one sense, this is true.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]It seemed he allowed me to talk so that he could tell me about what he believed.[/quote]

This is a problem why?

 

[Castor Muscular]

ALAYMAN, you did ask this in your post:

When was the last time that the recipient of your presentation trusted the Savior?

So it wasn't ONLY a question about when you articulated the Gospel.

Right, but the nature of the question wasn't such that it implied that I think a person should use salesmanship.  That has to be imported into the question.

Yeah, I wasn't saying that.  I was just clarifying a detail. 

 

[rsc2a]

This whole line of questioning reminds me of the time someone asked me, "When was the last time you saved someone?"

I calmly replied that the salvation of myself, much less others, was waaaay outside of my abilities.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Yeah, sounds predictable, especially the "be good" part.  Of course that sounds like the average American pagan in many respects too. 

And a lot of Christians...[/quote]

Yes, but it is true that our walk should match our profession.  If by your answer you mean that many so-called Christians are confused about sanctification I would agree to that.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]The part about her ignoring what you said and attempting to indoctrinate you is eerily similar to my lone experience with witnessing to a Buddhist.  It was one of the most frustrating experiences I've had.

I've found that most Easterners I've associated with do not try to indoctrinate others. In fact, eastern religions generally aren't even evangelistic. It would be especially odd of a Buddhist to try to indoctrinate someone. Do you know what branch of Buddhism they followed?[/quote]

I didn't get that far.  We talked for maybe 15 minutes until he cut the conversation off abruptly.  His general disposition from the beginning seemed to be one of mild curiosity at first, but mixed with a dose of distrust.  Of course lots of people are distrusting of anybody who comes to their door "soliciting".

[quote author=ALAYMAN]I just remember him saying that Buddhism had been around longer than Jesus.

In one sense, this is true.
[/quote]

Yes, but I actually did get to break the error of that thinking down with him.  I stated the eternal nature of Christ, and that if His NT claims were true then his human existence/incarnation was not the most important part of His essence.

 

[ALAYMAN]

This whole line of questioning reminds me of the time someone asked me, "When was the last time you saved someone?"

I calmly replied that the salvation of myself, much less others, was waaaay outside of my abilities.

A drunken man came up to Rowland Hill, one day, and said, "I am one of your converts, Mr. Hill." "I daresay you are," replied that shrewd and sensible preacher; "but you are none of the Lord's, or you would not be drunk."--Spurgeon

 

[PappaBear]

I wonder if the predestinarian Paul was trying to make himself responsible for other people's salvation....


1Co 4:15  For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.



Stinkin' semi-pelegian narcissist that Paul.

Well, you know, he wasn't "really" an apostle.  You just can't trust what he wrote. 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN] I stated the eternal nature of Christ, and that if His NT claims were true then his human existence/incarnation was not the most important part of His essence.[/quote]

Right. It's just as important as His deity.

 

[Castor Muscular]

I wonder if the predestinarian Paul was trying to make himself responsible for other people's salvation....


1Co 4:15  For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.



Stinkin' semi-pelegian narcissist that Paul.

Well, you know, he wasn't "really" an apostle.  You just can't trust what he wrote. 

Paul had quite an ego. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=ALAYMAN] I stated the eternal nature of Christ, and that if His NT claims were true then his human existence/incarnation was not the most important part of His essence.

Right. It's just as important as His deity.
[/quote]

Yes, it is, but that has nothing to do with his eternal existence, and the consequent logical necessity to accept that Christ (and His ethical imperatives) predated all of the golden rules of any moral system of thought.

 

[Izdaari]

This whole line of questioning reminds me of the time someone asked me, "When was the last time you saved someone?"

I calmly replied that the salvation of myself, much less others, was waaaay outside of my abilities.

A drunken man came up to Rowland Hill, one day, and said, "I am one of your converts, Mr. Hill." "I daresay you are," replied that shrewd and sensible preacher; "but you are none of the Lord's, or you would not be drunk."--Spurgeon

A very clever witticism, but not quite true. People do still sometimes yield to temptation after being saved.

 

[Castor Muscular]

This whole line of questioning reminds me of the time someone asked me, "When was the last time you saved someone?"

I calmly replied that the salvation of myself, much less others, was waaaay outside of my abilities.

A drunken man came up to Rowland Hill, one day, and said, "I am one of your converts, Mr. Hill." "I daresay you are," replied that shrewd and sensible preacher; "but you are none of the Lord's, or you would not be drunk."--Spurgeon

A very clever witticism, but not quite true. People do still sometimes yield to temptation after being saved.

It also sounds like urban legend.  Any references to substantiate the quote? 

 

[ALAYMAN]

This whole line of questioning reminds me of the time someone asked me, "When was the last time you saved someone?"

I calmly replied that the salvation of myself, much less others, was waaaay outside of my abilities.

A drunken man came up to Rowland Hill, one day, and said, "I am one of your converts, Mr. Hill." "I daresay you are," replied that shrewd and sensible preacher; "but you are none of the Lord's, or you would not be drunk."--Spurgeon

A very clever witticism, but not quite true. People do still sometimes yield to temptation after being saved.

I'm far from a Lordship Salvationist, so I agree.  The quote simply provides a general truth that "converts" of ours are able to be dissuaded, but he Lord's are eternal.  Of course our Arminian brethren would also take exception with that teaching too.

 

[ALAYMAN]

It also sounds like urban legend.  Any references to substantiate the quote?

http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/sw01.htm

 

[Castor Muscular]

I like this one, better, but it could also be urban legend.  I paraphrase from memory:

Spurgeon went into a meeting place where a handful of his congregation were sitting around smoking.  He said, "Do you think it wrong to be smoking and so early in the morning?"  Then they all put away their pipes and cigars.  Then Spurgeon lit up his own cigar.  The men looked at him quizzically.  He said, "What?  I only asked you if you think it's wrong.  Apparently you do, since you put away your smokes."