Whose Fault? Husband or Church?

[Twisted]

I'm pasting a post from Facebook but removing the names.  Tragic, and a problem for many in ministry.  This man had no life insurance.  The church provided no life insurance.

It's easy to say "live by faith" as long as the checks come in.

*****************


Dear friends:
I am writing on behalf of K**** P***. Her husband and my longtime friend, ***** ******, who Pastored the ******* Baptist Church in ******., for twenty years, passed away unexpectedly in May.

Mrs. P**** is now without his income and struggling to survive in New England, where the cost of living is very high. She needs some temporary help as she transitions without his income.

I am asking and praying that my friends will pray and if possible send a one time gift to her.

She is working and seeking to add to her income. Would you please consider sending a one time gift to:
**********
***********
**********

I know we all get many requests. This lady has been faithful and served along side her husband for 23 years.
I often think about what I would want others to do if it was my family in need.

Thanks for considering this request.

Do Not Send The Money to Me!!!
Use the above address- the new pastor will see that she gets the money.

Sincerely,

Bro. B****  *****

 

[Bruh]

I'd say husband.

He could've had a $250,000 policy on himself for somewhat cheap. 250K isn't much but at least she would have something to get started again.

It's not the church's fault. If they pay her his salary for 6 months to a year that would be generous IMO. They cannot pay for for ever.

Sad, but he is to blame. I saw a relative go through this and the husband left nothing and this opened my eyes and now I have a policy on myself.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I'd say husband.

He could've had a $250,000 policy on himself for somewhat cheap. 250K isn't much but at least she would have something to get started again.

It's not the church's fault. If they pay her his salary for 6 months to a year that would be generous IMO. They cannot pay for for ever.

Sad, but he is to blame. I saw a relative go through this and the husband left nothing and this opened my eyes and now I have a policy on myself.

If the Pauline epistles matter, what did Paul say about taking care of widows?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I'd say husband.

He could've had a $250,000 policy on himself for somewhat cheap. 250K isn't much but at least she would have something to get started again.

It's not the church's fault. If they pay her his salary for 6 months to a year that would be generous IMO. They cannot pay for for ever.

Sad, but he is to blame. I saw a relative go through this and the husband left nothing and this opened my eyes and now I have a policy on myself.

If the Pauline epistles matter, what did Paul say about taking care of widows?

If the Pauline epistles do or don't matter, what do you or your church family do to take care of widows?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I'd say husband.

He could've had a $250,000 policy on himself for somewhat cheap. 250K isn't much but at least she would have something to get started again.

It's not the church's fault. If they pay her his salary for 6 months to a year that would be generous IMO. They cannot pay for for ever.

Sad, but he is to blame. I saw a relative go through this and the husband left nothing and this opened my eyes and now I have a policy on myself.

If the Pauline epistles matter, what did Paul say about taking care of widows?

If the Pauline epistles do or don't matter, what do you or your church family do to take care of widows?

I do more personally than I am willing to tell you. Ya know, I have a thing about Matthew 6:4.

My church has a group (in rotation) who visit nursing homes (one in particular) weekly as well as a "Sew-n-Sew" club where sweaters, quilts and blankets are handmade for the elderly. Those items that aren't given to those in need are sold and the proceeds go to filling needs of the elderly. We provide classes preparing those who are going into retirement and also twice a year, have a 2-month program where we teach adults with elderly parents, how to be an effective caregiver through budgeting for the elderly, hospitalization/home choices, information needed for insurance/medical needs, helping parents set up a will, etc. We have a care pastor who has a list of members he knows that struggle and makes sure they have enough groceries and the church staff will bring them from our church's food pantry if needed. Grief counseling is provided as well (as a part of our church's counseling services from Divorce Care for Men, Divorce Care for Women, Divorce Care for Children, Financial Services, Parenting, and AA). I am not involved in each of those things but I am involved.

 

[Bob H]

I'd say husband.

He could've had a $250,000 policy on himself for somewhat cheap. 250K isn't much but at least she would have something to get started again.

It's not the church's fault. If they pay her his salary for 6 months to a year that would be generous IMO. They cannot pay for for ever.

Sad, but he is to blame. I saw a relative go through this and the husband left nothing and this opened my eyes and now I have a policy on myself.

If the Pauline epistles matter, what did Paul say about taking care of widows?

Though up in yrs my folks are still alive. But if my dad passes it's mine, my brother, and my sisters job to take care of mom not the church's.

 

[Bob H]

I'm pasting a post from Facebook but removing the names.  Tragic, and a problem for many in ministry.  This man had no life insurance.  The church provided no life insurance.

It's easy to say "live by faith" as long as the checks come in.

*****************


Dear friends:
I am writing on behalf of K**** P***. Her husband and my longtime friend, ***** ******, who Pastored the ******* Baptist Church in ******., for twenty years, passed away unexpectedly in May.

Mrs. P**** is now without his income and struggling to survive in New England, where the cost of living is very high. She needs some temporary help as she transitions without his income.

I am asking and praying that my friends will pray and if possible send a one time gift to her.

She is working and seeking to add to her income. Would you please consider sending a one time gift to:
**********
***********
**********

I know we all get many requests. This lady has been faithful and served along side her husband for 23 years.
I often think about what I would want others to do if it was my family in need.

Thanks for considering this request.

Do Not Send The Money to Me!!!
Use the above address- the new pastor will see that she gets the money.

Sincerely,

Bro. B****  *****

The husband's

 

[Walt]

It's interesting, as times have changed.  When the church was in its infancy, one of the priorities was taking care of the widows of members, as women whose husbands died were in dire straights.

Today we live in an age of life insurance and women can be independent of her husband.

It seems like Paul's instructions to the churches were that only widows over 60 were chargeable to the church, and that only if they did not have relatives to take care of them.

It's easy to beat up on a dead man; yes, if he & his wife had no savings, he certainly should have had life insurance.

In this specific case, since I know none of the parties, I'd like to know
1) What is her plan to "transition" to living without his income?
2) She is working and has income, but she either has (a) temporary needs that her job doesn't cover, or (b) she plans to get a better-paying job.  Not sure which applies here.
3) The "send the money to a unknown pastor" rings a "danger" bell.  If I were going to send money, I'd want to let a secretary of deacon know as well so that the pastor couldn't just keep what I send. 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I'd say husband.

He could've had a $250,000 policy on himself for somewhat cheap. 250K isn't much but at least she would have something to get started again.

It's not the church's fault. If they pay her his salary for 6 months to a year that would be generous IMO. They cannot pay for for ever.

Sad, but he is to blame. I saw a relative go through this and the husband left nothing and this opened my eyes and now I have a policy on myself.

If the Pauline epistles matter, what did Paul say about taking care of widows?

Though up in yrs my folks are still alive. But if my dad passes it's mine, my brother, and my sisters job to take care of mom not the church's.

I agree with that. My wife and I currently are caregivers for my in-laws and no doubt will soon be for my parents. This is why we moved to NC from NW Indiana, so we could do the responsible thing and care for our elderly parents.

I was just seeing how Paul's words get twisted to excuse the church not to have to take care of someone. Ya know, contorting Scripture to support our personal views (of which I admit I also am guilty.)

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I'm pasting a post from Facebook but removing the names.  Tragic, and a problem for many in ministry.  This man had no life insurance.  The church provided no life insurance.

It's easy to say "live by faith" as long as the checks come in.

*****************


Dear friends:
I am writing on behalf of K**** P***. Her husband and my longtime friend, ***** ******, who Pastored the ******* Baptist Church in ******., for twenty years, passed away unexpectedly in May.

Mrs. P**** is now without his income and struggling to survive in New England, where the cost of living is very high. She needs some temporary help as she transitions without his income.

I am asking and praying that my friends will pray and if possible send a one time gift to her.

She is working and seeking to add to her income. Would you please consider sending a one time gift to:
**********
***********
**********

I know we all get many requests. This lady has been faithful and served along side her husband for 23 years.
I often think about what I would want others to do if it was my family in need.

Thanks for considering this request.

Do Not Send The Money to Me!!!
Use the above address- the new pastor will see that she gets the money.

Sincerely,

Bro. B****  *****

The husband's

The question shouldn't be "Who's (sic) Fault?" but rather "Who is going to take care of her now?"

 

[Twisted]

The question shouldn't be "Who's (sic) Fault?"

I didn't notice that.  Corrected.  Thanks.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I'd say husband.

He could've had a $250,000 policy on himself for somewhat cheap. 250K isn't much but at least she would have something to get started again.

It's not the church's fault. If they pay her his salary for 6 months to a year that would be generous IMO. They cannot pay for for ever.

Sad, but he is to blame. I saw a relative go through this and the husband left nothing and this opened my eyes and now I have a policy on myself.

If the Pauline epistles matter, what did Paul say about taking care of widows?

If the Pauline epistles do or don't matter, what do you or your church family do to take care of widows?

I do more personally than I am willing to tell you. Ya know, I have a thing about Matthew 6:4.

My church has a group (in rotation) who visit nursing homes (one in particular) weekly as well as a "Sew-n-Sew" club where sweaters, quilts and blankets are handmade for the elderly. Those items that aren't given to those in need are sold and the proceeds go to filling needs of the elderly. We provide classes preparing those who are going into retirement and also twice a year, have a 2-month program where we teach adults with elderly parents, how to be an effective caregiver through budgeting for the elderly, hospitalization/home choices, information needed for insurance/medical needs, helping parents set up a will, etc. We have a care pastor who has a list of members he knows that struggle and makes sure they have enough groceries and the church staff will bring them from our church's food pantry if needed. Grief counseling is provided as well (as a part of our church's counseling services from Divorce Care for Men, Divorce Care for Women, Divorce Care for Children, Financial Services, Parenting, and AA). I am not involved in each of those things but I am involved.

Exactly.
In the south (especially), you can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone offering a church program like those you describe. It's not the Pauline epistles that are the problem...it's that you are hermeneutically challenged. Bless your heart. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I'd say husband.

He could've had a $250,000 policy on himself for somewhat cheap. 250K isn't much but at least she would have something to get started again.

It's not the church's fault. If they pay her his salary for 6 months to a year that would be generous IMO. They cannot pay for for ever.

Sad, but he is to blame. I saw a relative go through this and the husband left nothing and this opened my eyes and now I have a policy on myself.

If the Pauline epistles matter, what did Paul say about taking care of widows?

True Dat!

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Everyone.

Yep, he should have had life insurance to care for these things.  He should have had a trust fund to care for his remaining family.  He should have had a 401K to draw from when it was needed.  He should have had some property that could be rented for continual income or sold in a pinch to care for expenses.  Yes.  He should have done these things.

Now I speak as a life-long minister.  He probably didn't have the money.  Most of us, especially a higher percentage in the IFB world, don't make enough money to have an extra pair of shoes, let alone all of this safety net stuff.  I have never in my ministry made above poverty level wages.  Ever.  Even when employed by large, well known churches.  When you are praying in money to keep your kids clothed and only shopping at second hand stores, you just don't have enough to think about retirement.  My in-laws spent all of their retirement to buy groceries and keep their house when the church he was pastoring split.  Things happen.  Don't be so quick to blame the pastor who is now deceased and add insult to the mourning wife who is absolutely lost.  Maybe the man failed his wife, but the church failed their pastor.

The church should have mandated that the pastor have a retirement fund and provided it for him.  Just as the membership wants a retirement package from their employer that they can take with them, so to should the pastor have from his church.  Let the church make it right and continue funding this lady's life.

 

[Twisted]

I have never in my ministry made above poverty level wages.  Ever. 

And yet, you never have lack of a good supply of Binaca.

 

[Bruh]

Everyone.

Yep, he should have had life insurance to care for these things.  He should have had a trust fund to care for his remaining family.  He should have had a 401K to draw from when it was needed.  He should have had some property that could be rented for continual income or sold in a pinch to care for expenses.  Yes.  He should have done these things.

Now I speak as a life-long minister.  He probably didn't have the money.  Most of us, especially a higher percentage in the IFB world, don't make enough money to have an extra pair of shoes, let alone all of this safety net stuff.  I have never in my ministry made above poverty level wages.  Ever.  Even when employed by large, well known churches.  When you are praying in money to keep your kids clothed and only shopping at second hand stores, you just don't have enough to think about retirement.  My in-laws spent all of their retirement to buy groceries and keep their house when the church he was pastoring split.  Things happen.  Don't be so quick to blame the pastor who is now deceased and add insult to the mourning wife who is absolutely lost.  Maybe the man failed his wife, but the church failed their pastor.

The church should have mandated that the pastor have a retirement fund and provided it for him.  Just as the membership wants a retirement package from their employer that they can take with them, so to should the pastor have from his church.  Let the church make it right and continue funding this lady's life.

I definitely get and sympathize with what you say.

My only question is this, do the same rules apply to a family where the husband chooses to work for less per hour and work only 40 or so hours a week so he can spend time with his family and so he can go to all church services.

He then dies and he was unable to leave anything for his family because, of the above.

Would the church be held to the same rules for the laymen?

 

[sword]

There is plenty of blame to go around here.

1. The husband has an obligation to care for his wife and family. I do not believe this responsibility ends at his death. One must have insurance (health and life) even if it means working a second job to provide it. Many preachers work a second part time and most often full time jobs until the ministry can provide enough income to care for his family. If you can't make enough at one job most people work two. Why is this not an option for some preachers? They like to blame the ministry when it's their own fault. Most homes need the father to work over time, a second job or the wife to work to make ends meet. I assume the ministry as a profession would be the same.

2. The church has an obligation to pay a full time wage for their pastors or insist they work a second job. This should apply to all staff. If you cannot care for them then you need to provide a way (schedule & plan) for them to care for their family's needs. Most of us would not stay at a job that does not provide for our needs why should he. In many situations a church also kicks the widow out of the parsonage and cuts off her income soon after the pastor die's. This is a real problem if she does not have skills to find work and she should not have to if they plans for her needs. Just because the church failed to have a plan does not mean they have no responsibility to care for their full time staff when they are old.

3. His parents should have taught him financial responsibility and discipline. Every young man MUST be taught they are responsible for their wife and minor kids even after death. They should also be taught to care for their elderly parents, and not to dump them on the system. God demands we take care of our family.
1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
4. Where ever he received his training for the ministry may have failed to properly prepare him regarding both Church & personal finances. The bible speaks a lot about money. It talks a lot about this very subject. Those in the ministry should be expected to understand basic finance. They need to know about budgeting saving, insurance, investments, 401K & 403B's, SS planning, long term car planning, estate planning & trusts, basic tax law, time management and other basic financial knowledge for themselves and for counseling others. Why would a member go to the preacher for financial advice if the pastor's own house is not in order? A pastor?s financial knowledge should not be limited to Malachi 3:8-10 

5. His Kids have the primary responsibility at this point to care for their mom. If that means working 2 jobs or allowing her to move in with them then so be it. Each child should look at her needs as their own financial responsibility. They may need to tighten up their budget but they MUST care for her.

6. Lastly whatever church she goes to now should watch over and care for her. She is not just a widow but she allowed her husband to serve God full time and likely served in the ministry unpaid for many years. Pastor?s wives do so much behind the scenes that goes unnoticed. The church should do what they can to help & show her double honor. I feel for her. 

The story of this pastor?s wife is repeated over and over every year. I know of at least 5 pastors that died in 2015 that left wives under provided for. No home, no income and in many cases very little or no SS if they did not work and the husband opted out.

 

[Walt]

Everyone.

Yep, he should have had life insurance to care for these things.  He should have had a trust fund to care for his remaining family.  He should have had a 401K to draw from when it was needed.  He should have had some property that could be rented for continual income or sold in a pinch to care for expenses.  Yes.  He should have done these things.

Now I speak as a life-long minister.  He probably didn't have the money.  Most of us, especially a higher percentage in the IFB world, don't make enough money to have an extra pair of shoes, let alone all of this safety net stuff.  I have never in my ministry made above poverty level wages.  Ever.  Even when employed by large, well known churches.  When you are praying in money to keep your kids clothed and only shopping at second hand stores, you just don't have enough to think about retirement.  My in-laws spent all of their retirement to buy groceries and keep their house when the church he was pastoring split.  Things happen.  Don't be so quick to blame the pastor who is now deceased and add insult to the mourning wife who is absolutely lost.  Maybe the man failed his wife, but the church failed their pastor.

The church should have mandated that the pastor have a retirement fund and provided it for him.  Just as the membership wants a retirement package from their employer that they can take with them, so to should the pastor have from his church.  Let the church make it right and continue funding this lady's life.

I agree that the church should have insisted, but perhaps the church just didn't have the money.  Sometimes it is a joint problem - the pastor is trying desperately to grow the church, and spends money on things to attract people.  The membership dislikes to tell him "no, you must put money in your retirement fund."

I am surprised that the church didn't proved life insurance, though.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Everyone.

Yep, he should have had life insurance to care for these things.  He should have had a trust fund to care for his remaining family.  He should have had a 401K to draw from when it was needed.  He should have had some property that could be rented for continual income or sold in a pinch to care for expenses.  Yes.  He should have done these things.

Now I speak as a life-long minister.  He probably didn't have the money.  Most of us, especially a higher percentage in the IFB world, don't make enough money to have an extra pair of shoes, let alone all of this safety net stuff.  I have never in my ministry made above poverty level wages.  Ever.  Even when employed by large, well known churches.  When you are praying in money to keep your kids clothed and only shopping at second hand stores, you just don't have enough to think about retirement.  My in-laws spent all of their retirement to buy groceries and keep their house when the church he was pastoring split.  Things happen.  Don't be so quick to blame the pastor who is now deceased and add insult to the mourning wife who is absolutely lost.  Maybe the man failed his wife, but the church failed their pastor.

The church should have mandated that the pastor have a retirement fund and provided it for him.  Just as the membership wants a retirement package from their employer that they can take with them, so to should the pastor have from his church.  Let the church make it right and continue funding this lady's life.

I agree that the church should have insisted, but perhaps the church just didn't have the money.  Sometimes it is a joint problem - the pastor is trying desperately to grow the church, and spends money on things to attract people.  The membership dislikes to tell him "no, you must put money in your retirement fund."

I am surprised that the church didn't proved life insurance, though.

In nearly 20 years of ministry, I have never had life insurance offered to me as a benefit.  In my last 12 years of ministry, the church told me to get on medicaid for my family's medical needs since they weren't going to give me a raise and we should take advantage of the government's offerings to us.  Meanwhile, the "preacher" grew his church through political alignments bashing those "lazy welfare recipients who need to go get a job."

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I have never in my ministry made above poverty level wages.  Ever. 

And yet, you never have lack of a good supply of Binaca.

The Binaca keeps me happy.