Whose Fault? Husband or Church?

[Binaca Chugger]

Everyone.

Yep, he should have had life insurance to care for these things.  He should have had a trust fund to care for his remaining family.  He should have had a 401K to draw from when it was needed.  He should have had some property that could be rented for continual income or sold in a pinch to care for expenses.  Yes.  He should have done these things.

Now I speak as a life-long minister.  He probably didn't have the money.  Most of us, especially a higher percentage in the IFB world, don't make enough money to have an extra pair of shoes, let alone all of this safety net stuff.  I have never in my ministry made above poverty level wages.  Ever.  Even when employed by large, well known churches.  When you are praying in money to keep your kids clothed and only shopping at second hand stores, you just don't have enough to think about retirement.  My in-laws spent all of their retirement to buy groceries and keep their house when the church he was pastoring split.  Things happen.  Don't be so quick to blame the pastor who is now deceased and add insult to the mourning wife who is absolutely lost.  Maybe the man failed his wife, but the church failed their pastor.

The church should have mandated that the pastor have a retirement fund and provided it for him.  Just as the membership wants a retirement package from their employer that they can take with them, so to should the pastor have from his church.  Let the church make it right and continue funding this lady's life.

I definitely get and sympathize with what you say.

My only question is this, do the same rules apply to a family where the husband chooses to work for less per hour and work only 40 or so hours a week so he can spend time with his family and so he can go to all church services.

He then dies and he was unable to leave anything for his family because, of the above.

Would the church be held to the same rules for the laymen?

When taking on the pastor as a full time staff member, a church should consider the family also.  The church is entering into an agreement with the pastor:  You take care of us spiritually, and we will take care of you and your family physically.  The church has failed to hold up their end of the bargain.  They need to take care of his wife and help her become financially stable, which would include learning a trade that would support her and her family.

Yes, it is the duty of the church to care for the widows.  Pretty plainly laid out in Scripture.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

There is plenty of blame to go around here.

1. The husband has an obligation to care for his wife and family. I do not believe this responsibility ends at his death. One must have insurance (health and life) even if it means working a second job to provide it. Many preachers work a second part time and most often full time jobs until the ministry can provide enough income to care for his family. If you can't make enough at one job most people work two. Why is this not an option for some preachers? They like to blame the ministry when it's their own fault. Most homes need the father to work over time, a second job or the wife to work to make ends meet. I assume the ministry as a profession would be the same.

2. The church has an obligation to pay a full time wage for their pastors or insist they work a second job. This should apply to all staff. If you cannot care for them then you need to provide a way (schedule & plan) for them to care for their family's needs. Most of us would not stay at a job that does not provide for our needs why should he. In many situations a church also kicks the widow out of the parsonage and cuts off her income soon after the pastor die's. This is a real problem if she does not have skills to find work and she should not have to if they plans for her needs. Just because the church failed to have a plan does not mean they have no responsibility to care for their full time staff when they are old.

3. His parents should have taught him financial responsibility and discipline. Every young man MUST be taught they are responsible for their wife and minor kids even after death. They should also be taught to care for their elderly parents, and not to dump them on the system. God demands we take care of our family.
1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
4. Where ever he received his training for the ministry may have failed to properly prepare him regarding both Church & personal finances. The bible speaks a lot about money. It talks a lot about this very subject. Those in the ministry should be expected to understand basic finance. They need to know about budgeting saving, insurance, investments, 401K & 403B's, SS planning, long term car planning, estate planning & trusts, basic tax law, time management and other basic financial knowledge for themselves and for counseling others. Why would a member go to the preacher for financial advice if the pastor's own house is not in order? A pastor?s financial knowledge should not be limited to Malachi 3:8-10 

5. His Kids have the primary responsibility at this point to care for their mom. If that means working 2 jobs or allowing her to move in with them then so be it. Each child should look at her needs as their own financial responsibility. They may need to tighten up their budget but they MUST care for her.

6. Lastly whatever church she goes to now should watch over and care for her. She is not just a widow but she allowed her husband to serve God full time and likely served in the ministry unpaid for many years. Pastor?s wives do so much behind the scenes that goes unnoticed. The church should do what they can to help & show her double honor. I feel for her. 

The story of this pastor?s wife is repeated over and over every year. I know of at least 5 pastors that died in 2015 that left wives under provided for. No home, no income and in many cases very little or no SS if they did not work and the husband opted out.

1.  The nationally known church where I ministered mandated that I do not work a second job.  I would lose my position if I did.  Giant guilt trips are used to keep one in his place and needing the pastor.  We chose to remain in this ministry despite the lack of pay because we wanted to be in ministry.  We were doing good things and helping people who would not otherwise be reached.  In a small church, we went through a split and simply did not have enough money.  We lived off the gardens of the church members before I finally went out and got a job.

2.  Agreed.

3.  Agreed.

4.  HAC taught us not to ask for money.  No financial planning was taught.

5.  Agreed

6.  Agreed

 

[Jo]

The "evil" Southern Baptist Convention has a fund set up for widows that fall into this category.  It would be great if the IFB could start one.

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[Jo]

If interested check out MissionDignity.org. 

It's also called Adopt an Annuitant.

As I understand it, a person who has a substantial sum of money can give by creating an annuity. The giver also receives a tax deduction.

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[Jo]

Two more points.

1.  There comes a time when it is no longer helpful to cast blame.  It is best to try and fix what can be fixed.

2.  Not every widow has children or family to help her.

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[Twisted]

It is best to try and fix what can be fixed.

Hence the purpose of the OP and the thoughts expressed in this thread.

 

[Jo]

It is best to try and fix what can be fixed.

Hence the purpose of the OP and the thoughts expressed in this thread.

Glad you posted it.

Now, what can we do to get you out of the straightjacket?

 

[Mathew Ward]

Everyone.

Yep, he should have had life insurance to care for these things.  He should have had a trust fund to care for his remaining family.  He should have had a 401K to draw from when it was needed.  He should have had some property that could be rented for continual income or sold in a pinch to care for expenses.  Yes.  He should have done these things.

Now I speak as a life-long minister.  He probably didn't have the money.  Most of us, especially a higher percentage in the IFB world, don't make enough money to have an extra pair of shoes, let alone all of this safety net stuff.  I have never in my ministry made above poverty level wages.  Ever.  Even when employed by large, well known churches.  When you are praying in money to keep your kids clothed and only shopping at second hand stores, you just don't have enough to think about retirement.  My in-laws spent all of their retirement to buy groceries and keep their house when the church he was pastoring split.  Things happen.  Don't be so quick to blame the pastor who is now deceased and add insult to the mourning wife who is absolutely lost.  Maybe the man failed his wife, but the church failed their pastor.

The church should have mandated that the pastor have a retirement fund and provided it for him.  Just as the membership wants a retirement package from their employer that they can take with them, so to should the pastor have from his church.  Let the church make it right and continue funding this lady's life.

I definitely get and sympathize with what you say.

My only question is this, do the same rules apply to a family where the husband chooses to work for less per hour and work only 40 or so hours a week so he can spend time with his family and so he can go to all church services.

He then dies and he was unable to leave anything for his family because, of the above.

Would the church be held to the same rules for the laymen?

When taking on the pastor as a full time staff member, a church should consider the family also.  The church is entering into an agreement with the pastor:  You take care of us spiritually, and we will take care of you and your family physically.  The church has failed to hold up their end of the bargain.  They need to take care of his wife and help her become financially stable, which would include learning a trade that would support her and her family.

Yes, it is the duty of the church to care for the widows.  Pretty plainly laid out in Scripture.

I think there are qualifing stipulations for widows.

 

[Twisted]

Now, what can we do to get you out of the straightjacket?

Not a good idea.

 

[Fresh Air]

Whose Fault?  Husband or Church?

Both. First, it is the husband's fault. It is his scriptural responsibility to care for his wife. It was his lack of prudence that directly led her to this situation. This is true no matter whether the woman in question is a pastor's wife or a truck driver's wife. We men are specifically told in Scripture to provide for our own. Allowing a church to underpay you b/c you are too cowardly to talk about money is not spiritual, and neither is spending all the church's money on bus routes. To be spiritual is to be scriptural, and a man cannot be scriptural if he is neglecting the financial needs of his family.

Second, it is the church's fault. Again we see Scripture. It pointedly and repeatedly establishes the principle that her minister's are to be paid, and paid well. If a church does not do this because it cannot then it should free the pastor/staff member up to work another job so he can. It dare not ask for a man's full time attention if it cannot pay him a full time living wage. If a church does not because its pastor has failed to teach it that it bears this responsibility that is no excuse. It is an explanation, but it is not an excuse. Every church has the Bible. Every church has read the same sections of Corinthians and Timothy. Its lay leadership has no right to point the finger of blame at the pastor and say, "You didn't teach us how."

I blogged extensively about this about a year ago. I grew up in a pastor's home. We were so broke my mother went without a new dress for 20 years and I paid for my own clothes and dental care with my paper route money. Meanwhile my Dad made less money at the conclusion of an 18 year pastorate than he did at the beginning, all while struggling to raise six kids. That church generation's financial stinginess was inexcusable. As a pastor now myself for 19 years my background has done much to form my present approach in this area. Is it my church's responsibility? Scripturally, yes. But also scripturally it is my responsibility. And I'm not going to sit in my office and blame my deacons, my men, or my offerings. I have to figure out how to make it work. That's my job; it is what I signed on for when I got married.

...so, both. The deceased pastor in question should have shouldered his responsibility with much more care. He had no right to excuse or blame the church (if he ever did.) But the church has no right to point its finger at the pastor and hold him accountable. Corporately, it will itself be held to account for its failure.

In a sense, this reminds me of marriage. When a wife and a husband BOTH take ownership of their responsibility to build a good marriage it almost cannot help but happen. The same thing ought to be true in situations such as these.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Whose Fault?  Husband or Church?

Both. First, it is the husband's fault. It is his scriptural responsibility to care for his wife. It was his lack of prudence that directly led her to this situation. This is true no matter whether the woman in question is a pastor's wife or a truck driver's wife. We men are specifically told in Scripture to provide for our own. Allowing a church to underpay you b/c you are too cowardly to talk about money is not spiritual, and neither is spending all the church's money on bus routes. To be spiritual is to be scriptural, and a man cannot be scriptural if he is neglecting the financial needs of his family.

Second, it is the church's fault. Again we see Scripture. It pointedly and repeatedly establishes the principle that her minister's are to be paid, and paid well. If a church does not do this because it cannot then it should free the pastor/staff member up to work another job so he can. It dare not ask for a man's full time attention if it cannot pay him a full time living wage. If a church does not because its pastor has failed to teach it that it bears this responsibility that is no excuse. It is an explanation, but it is not an excuse. Every church has the Bible. Every church has read the same sections of Corinthians and Timothy. Its lay leadership has no right to point the finger of blame at the pastor and say, "You didn't teach us how."

I blogged extensively about this about a year ago. I grew up in a pastor's home. We were so broke my mother went without a new dress for 20 years and I paid for my own clothes and dental care with my paper route money. Meanwhile my Dad made less money at the conclusion of an 18 year pastorate than he did at the beginning, all while struggling to raise six kids. That church generation's financial stinginess was inexcusable. As a pastor now myself for 19 years my background has done much to form my present approach in this area. Is it my church's responsibility? Scripturally, yes. But also scripturally it is my responsibility. And I'm not going to sit in my office and blame my deacons, my men, or my offerings. I have to figure out how to make it work. That's my job; it is what I signed on for when I got married.

...so, both. The deceased pastor in question should have shouldered his responsibility with much more care. He had no right to excuse or blame the church (if he ever did.) But the church has no right to point its finger at the pastor and hold him accountable. Corporately, it will itself be held to account for its failure.

In a sense, this reminds me of marriage. When a wife and a husband BOTH take ownership of their responsibility to build a good marriage it almost cannot help but happen. The same thing ought to be true in situations such as these.

^^This

 

[Bruh]

Whose Fault?  Husband or Church?

Both. First, it is the husband's fault. It is his scriptural responsibility to care for his wife. It was his lack of prudence that directly led her to this situation. This is true no matter whether the woman in question is a pastor's wife or a truck driver's wife. We men are specifically told in Scripture to provide for our own. Allowing a church to underpay you b/c you are too cowardly to talk about money is not spiritual, and neither is spending all the church's money on bus routes. To be spiritual is to be scriptural, and a man cannot be scriptural if he is neglecting the financial needs of his family.

Second, it is the church's fault. Again we see Scripture. It pointedly and repeatedly establishes the principle that her minister's are to be paid, and paid well. If a church does not do this because it cannot then it should free the pastor/staff member up to work another job so he can. It dare not ask for a man's full time attention if it cannot pay him a full time living wage. If a church does not because its pastor has failed to teach it that it bears this responsibility that is no excuse. It is an explanation, but it is not an excuse. Every church has the Bible. Every church has read the same sections of Corinthians and Timothy. Its lay leadership has no right to point the finger of blame at the pastor and say, "You didn't teach us how."

I blogged extensively about this about a year ago. I grew up in a pastor's home. We were so broke my mother went without a new dress for 20 years and I paid for my own clothes and dental care with my paper route money. Meanwhile my Dad made less money at the conclusion of an 18 year pastorate than he did at the beginning, all while struggling to raise six kids. That church generation's financial stinginess was inexcusable. As a pastor now myself for 19 years my background has done much to form my present approach in this area. Is it my church's responsibility? Scripturally, yes. But also scripturally it is my responsibility. And I'm not going to sit in my office and blame my deacons, my men, or my offerings. I have to figure out how to make it work. That's my job; it is what I signed on for when I got married.

...so, both. The deceased pastor in question should have shouldered his responsibility with much more care. He had no right to excuse or blame the church (if he ever did.) But the church has no right to point its finger at the pastor and hold him accountable. Corporately, it will itself be held to account for its failure.

In a sense, this reminds me of marriage. When a wife and a husband BOTH take ownership of their responsibility to build a good marriage it almost cannot help but happen. The same thing ought to be true in situations such as these.

^^This

Question for both of you.

Is it right for the church to give the pastor something like, Life Insurance, when a tithing layman cannot afford it for himself?

Is it right to give the pastor something that tithing laymen in the church cannot afford for themselves?

 

[Twisted]

Question for both of you.

Is it right for the church to give the pastor something like, Life Insurance, when a tithing layman cannot afford it for himself?

Is it right to give the pastor something that tithing laymen in the church cannot afford for themselves?

I realize I'm not one of the "both", but your question makes little sense without more specifics.

Say in a church with 100 "tithing laymen" that only "a" tithing layman couldn't afford it.  Don't do it?  How silly.

Now if 75% couldn't afford it, then you might have a point. 

The right way to do it is that it is stipulated in the church constitution/by-laws.

 

[subllibrm]

Question for both of you.

Is it right for the church to give the pastor something like, Life Insurance, when a tithing layman cannot afford it for himself?

Is it right to give the pastor something that tithing laymen in the church cannot afford for themselves?

Why would a man be tithing if he can't afford to take care of his family? That is a whacked out priorities issue right there.

 

[Twisted]

Why would a man be tithing if he can't afford to take care of his family? That is a whacked out priorities issue right there.

Glad you said that.  I wanted to say it, but someone would say I was crazy or something.

 

[Ransom]

Is it right for the church to give the pastor something like, Life Insurance, when a tithing layman cannot afford it for himself?

Is it right to give the pastor something that tithing laymen in the church cannot afford for themselves?

Let's frame this a little differently. Typically a minister is a well-educated,  skilled professional. Is such a person worthy of a salary that allows him to afford such things as a life insurance policy? If they can't afford to pay him a decent wage based on his skills,  experience, hours worked and level of responsibility,  then I submit they are morally obligated to free him from such responsibilities that allow him to pursue a second vocation so he can meet his financial obligations to himself and his family.

 

[Bruh]

Ok ok ok ok ok

 

[Jo]

These are the things ChurchEd should have addressed..imho.

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[Fresh Air]

Is it right for the church to give the pastor something like, Life Insurance, when a tithing layman cannot afford it for himself?

Is it right to give the pastor something that tithing laymen in the church cannot afford for themselves?

Within reason, yes. Otherwise the pastor would never be paid any more than the least paid church member, and that is neither fair nor reasonable.

 

[Twisted]

Otherwise the pastor would never be paid any more than the least paid church member...

I believe I met that search committee at a church I candidated at once.