Why I no longer worship.

[ALAYMAN]

You didn't insult me.

FYI, differences and disagreements DO matter and are needed. For example, we can't have democracy without differences and disagreements, vocal ones at that.

That meme was just flung out there for a couple of folks who I'm sure know who they are. I never considered you one of those folks that was trying to insult me.

All in good fun then.

That aside, how do you reconcile the dissonance between your position of questioning those theobro types if everyone is entitled to their own version and creation of theology?

 

[abcaines]

The song comes across as mocking to me. Almost as if they are ridiculing the "Cheap Grace" that so many have turned the Gospel into.

Could be that... Like I said, this tune isn't going to make any hymnal I'd use.

 

[Ransom]

On a personal note, I could not stand the techno-pop of the mid 80s and Depeche Mode epitomize that for me.

Have you heard Johnny Cash's cover of "Personal Jesus"?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Have you heard Johnny Cash's cover of "Personal Jesus"?

Yes, I worship Cash, so of course I liked it, I’m such a hypocrite.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

All in good fun then.

That aside, how do you reconcile the dissonance between your position of questioning those theobro types if everyone is entitled to their own version and creation of theology?

It isn't about personal beliefs but about how the espousal of those beliefs on others who see things differently, particularly those who are already being oppressed by their ideology being forced on them. I'm coming to their defense when I call out the theobro clan.

Even so, there will always be some degree of dissonance that cannot be reconciled. That is because reality itself is divided (which was a major point I've made in the original post, showing my personal hypocrisy.)

Example. For those (like me) who decry scapegoating or marginalizing, by our very nature scapegoat and marginalize those who scapegoat and marginalize others. Another example is those that say there is no absolute truth, make that point as absolute. Each of us cannot be consistent because even though we try to wallpaper over the cracks of contradiction, they are still under the covering we try to ignore. That is the way reality works: in contradiction and uncertainty.

The question is, are we willing to admit that to ourselves, freeing us to our humanity? That is an individual choice and is a morally neutral, relative decision.

Also, don't take critique of philosophical or religious inconsistencies as an evangelistic tool. I try to use it as a mirror to reflect the inconsistency that exists in humanity. It is up to that image bearer whether or not or even how to make personal adjustments.

In the end, I will come to the defense of those who I feel are being oppressed, particularly by the church. Tarheel does make a valid point about me: being a victim of Hyles' abuse probably has pushed me to want to stop religious oppression. He just won't admit to the premise that even though mainstream Evangelicalism doesn't seem to be as extreme, in reality it is. Systematic Theology is supremacist theology by its very existence. Supremacy indicates oppression.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I do understand this…
Sadly, Hyles did a number on you.

Nothing like gaslighting with faux sympathy.

But then again, that is not a bug in Evangelicalism, it's a feature.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Nothing like gaslighting with faux sympathy.

But then again, that is not a bug in Evangelicalism, it's a feature.

Same is true with faux intelligence, Smellin.

 

[abcaines]

So...

Everyone has their own value system/point of view. What sets one above another? Or, are all points of view equally valid?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So...

Everyone has their own value system/point of view. What sets one above another? Or, are all points of view equally valid?

Comes down to "if" it is forced upon others either in expected/mandated conformity of belief whether it is used as a weapon of oppression with the intent of gaining power over or colonizing another (to an ideology).

People are racist and/or homophobic. I believe it is OK to personally believe that way (though I would vehemently disagree) but once that ideology is espoused as a recruitment tool to scapegoat or oppress a marginalized victim, it goes beyond the scope of personal belief.

I can live with my Confederate-loving neighbors and even allow them signage and the flying of the Confederate flag on their personal property. When they use that ideology to oppress others, such as using their Confederate love to demonize Black folks or politically liberal folks, a line is crossed.

Their position is equally valid even though I am adamantly opposed to the ideology and find it leads to destructive behavior in many cases. Doesn't mean they are right or that I am right; we can live as equals and even talk to each other about our differences and disagreements without disparaging each other or attempting to coerce the other to the opposite side.

It's simply "live and let live" within societal protection.

 

[subllibrm]

Because some white men owned slaves then all white men are slave holders at heart and use religion to justify their oppression of other people. Or something like that.

 

[Ransom]

Everyone has their own value system/point of view. What sets one above another? Or, are all points of view equally valid?

Smellin is pretty sure you're wrong, though.

 

[abcaines]

Comes down to "if" it is forced upon others either in expected/mandated conformity of belief whether it is used as a weapon of oppression with the intent of gaining power over or colonizing another (to an ideology).

People are racist and/or homophobic. I believe it is OK to personally believe that way (though I would vehemently disagree) but once that ideology is espoused as a recruitment tool to scapegoat or oppress a marginalized victim, it goes beyond the scope of personal belief.

I can live with my Confederate-loving neighbors and even allow them signage and the flying of the Confederate flag on their personal property. When they use that ideology to oppress others, such as using their Confederate love to demonize Black folks or politically liberal folks, a line is crossed.

Their position is equally valid even though I am adamantly opposed to the ideology and find it leads to destructive behavior in many cases. Doesn't mean they are right or that I am right; we can live as equals and even talk to each other about our differences and disagreements without disparaging each other or attempting to coerce the other to the opposite side.

It's simply "live and let live" within societal protection.

So, not all viewpoints are equally valid then?

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

I can live with my Confederate-loving neighbors and even allow them signage and the flying of the Confederate flag on their personal property. When they use that ideology to oppress others, such as using their Confederate love to demonize Black folks or politically liberal folks, a line is crossed.

Would that be similar to a grudge-bearing atheist who feels the need to frequent Christian forums and peddle an ideology that is knowingly antithetical to the tenets of the forum and its members?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Would that be similar to a grudge-bearing atheist who feels the need to frequent Christian forums and peddle an ideology that is knowingly antithetical to the tenets of the forum and its members?

If I am trying to convert someone, yes. If it is a testimonial as to what is going on in my life and the metamorphosis of my thought processes over the years, I wouldn't think so.

Discussion and even debate is not necessarily a matter of attempting to coerce another. Presenting contrarian information does not coercion make.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So, not all viewpoints are equally valid then?

See? I'm proving all the time reality is divided, that we are all at contradiction with ourselves. I'm willing to admit I am contradictory as opposed to others who are but refuse to acknowledge it.

You're noticing is making my points for me.

 

[abcaines]

See? I'm proving all the time reality is divided, that we are all at contradiction with ourselves. I'm willing to admit I am contradictory as opposed to others who are but refuse to acknowledge it.

You're noticing is making my points for me.

So, you're right and I'm wrong?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So, you're right and I'm wrong?

Maybe and maybe not

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Because some white men owned slaves then all white men are slave holders at heart and use religion to justify their oppression of other people. Or something like that.

The adamant rejection of the validity of Liberation Theology is all the necessary proof needed.

 

[abcaines]

Maybe and maybe not

Your feet are firmly planted in midair...

Either that or all points of view are valid.

You'd make a good Buddhist.

 

[ALAYMAN]

If I am trying to convert someone, yes. If it is a testimonial as to what is going on in my life and the metamorphosis of my thought processes over the years, I wouldn't think so.

Discussion and even debate is not necessarily a matter of attempting to coerce another. Presenting contrarian information does not coercion make.

Your word usage of “coercion” doesn’t fit within a proper semantic range of applicability relating to this forum’s existence. We’re not Phred Phelps nor the Conquistadors, lol.