Why Independant Fundamental Baptist are Stupid

[Citadel of Truth]

Now. Let's break down the numbers.... How long had the pastor been in service in the ones you didn't see the portrait?... and what was the size of congregation?

If you have to start "breaking down the numbers" then be honest and admit that you grossly exaggerated when you made that statement. Then, we'll continue this discussion.

 

[christundivided]

Do you consider yourself an example??

If you have to ask, which apparently you did, you're stupid.

I don't think I'll ever be able to provoke you into a argument anymore.....

I'm going to miss that....

 

[christundivided]

Now. Let's break down the numbers.... How long had the pastor been in service in the ones you didn't see the portrait?... and what was the size of congregation?

If you have to start "breaking down the numbers" then be honest and admit that you grossly exaggerated when you made that statement. Then, we'll continue this discussion.

I never said they were in every church. I never even gave a percentage.

I will say they are in the majority of IFB churches where the pastor has been there more than 20 years and the congregation has grown substantially under his tenure.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

I've been among the IFBs for 30 years. Have you done the same? I've been from one end of the spectrum to the other. I've personally meet and fellow-shipped with many of the "icons" of the faith. I've had these same men yell "Amen" throughout the sermons I preached. Have you done the same? I speak from experience.

5

I have been in independent, fundamental Baptist churches for 35 years, but 5 of those were in the nursery and/or primary church.  I guess we can discount those 5 and say that I have been in for the same length of time.  And, I have been to churches in nearly every state in the lower 48 and a few in Canada.  So, yes, I think I can say roughly the same.  You will never hear me defend "all" IFBs, just like you do not hear me condemn all SBC churches.  I disagree with something about everyone, and occasionally disagree with myself.  But, I do know a lot of good IFB pastors.  And, I have never met an IFB "icon," though I have seen a few icons in some Catholic churches I have toured.

So you've never seen the huge portraits of the pastor hanging in the average IFB church? You've got to be kidding me. I take it you don't have a problem with LYING

I've been in dozens of IFB churches and I have only seen two portraits of a pastor in them. That's hardly average, wouldn't you agree?

Now. Let's break down the numbers.... How long had the pastor been in service in the ones you didn't see the portrait?... and what was the size of congregation?

I have been in around 200 IFB churches, I only saw portraits in one, it was a hall of faith and contained many faces, yes, JH was there and JRR as well. I have no idea f that church has those portraits still, that was 10 years ago. Yup, some of those 200 churches were less than 50 people, but many others were larger than 250 and over 10 years old and still pastored by the original pastor. They were graduates of Fairhaven, OBC, HAC, Trinity, WCBC, Faithway, BJU, PBI to name a few, and some just ordained after faithful service in their local church. They were in BC, AB, SK, MB, ON, ID, CA, OR, WA, WY, MT, IN, MI, SD, ND, OK, TX, AZ. All over the place.

One. Thats one half of one percent.

Those are your numbers

 

[christundivided]

I've been among the IFBs for 30 years. Have you done the same? I've been from one end of the spectrum to the other. I've personally meet and fellow-shipped with many of the "icons" of the faith. I've had these same men yell "Amen" throughout the sermons I preached. Have you done the same? I speak from experience.

I have been in independent, fundamental Baptist churches for 35 years, but 5 of those were in the nursery and/or primary church.  I guess we can discount those 5 and say that I have been in for the same length of time.  And, I have been to churches in nearly every state in the lower 48 and a few in Canada.  So, yes, I think I can say roughly the same.  You will never hear me defend "all" IFBs, just like you do not hear me condemn all SBC churches.  I disagree with something about everyone, and occasionally disagree with myself.  But, I do know a lot of good IFB pastors.  And, I have never met an IFB "icon," though I have seen a few icons in some Catholic churches I have toured.

So you've never seen the huge portraits of the pastor hanging in the average IFB church? You've got to be kidding me. I take it you don't have a problem with LYING

I've been in dozens of IFB churches and I have only seen two portraits of a pastor in them. That's hardly average, wouldn't you agree?

Now. Let's break down the numbers.... How long had the pastor been in service in the ones you didn't see the portrait?... and what was the size of congregation?

I have been in around 200 IFB churches, I only saw portraits in one, it was a hall of faith and contained many faces, yes, JH was there and JRR as well. I have no idea f that church has those portraits still, that was 10 years ago. Yup, some of those 200 churches were less than 50 people, but many others were larger than 250 and over 10 years old and still pastored by the original pastor. They were graduates of Fairhaven, OBC, HAC, Trinity, WCBC, Faithway, BJU, PBI to name a few, and some just ordained after faithful service in their local church.

One. Thats one half of one percent.

Those are your numbers

First. I don't believe you. I'm certain that you didn't pay enough attention to even notice it. Could you do a survey and get an accurate #?

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

You don‘t have to believe me. Thats your perogative. I stand by my recollection of my travels. No need to survey. Your assumptions are grossly excagerated. The guys who on here who either travelled preaching, or did IFB deputation are the guys who saw the majority of  churches. They are the ones who would have knowledge of such things.

 

[christundivided]

You don‘t have to believe me. Thats your perogative. I stand by my recollection of my travels. No need to survey. Your assumptions are grossly excagerated. The guys who on here who either travelled preaching, or did IFB deputation are the guys who saw the majority of  churches. They are the ones who would have knowledge of such things.

Sure.... you're all legends in the "recollection" community.

Maybe a forum survey? Would you accept those #s

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

You don‘t have to believe me. Thats your perogative. I stand by my recollection of my travels. No need to survey. Your assumptions are grossly excagerated. The guys who on here who either travelled preaching, or did IFB deputation are the guys who saw the majority of  churches. They are the ones who would have knowledge of such things.

Sure.... you're all legends in the "recollection" community.

Maybe a forum survey? Would you accept those #s

You survey away if it makes you feel better. In my case, I was looking for portraits. I was told about a church that split because a particular preacher was not included in their hall of faith. I found it bizarre, so, when I travelled, I looked, and found only one church with portraits or a hall of faith. Now, mind you, I am not ina camp. If you travelled inside a camp, in particular the FBCH camp,you might find different. I am simply relating my personal experience, I cannot speak for others.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You don‘t have to believe me. Thats your perogative. I stand by my recollection of my travels. No need to survey. Your assumptions are grossly excagerated. The guys who on here who either travelled preaching, or did IFB deputation are the guys who saw the majority of  churches. They are the ones who would have knowledge of such things.

Sure.... you're all legends in the "recollection" community.

Maybe a forum survey? Would you accept those #s

You survey away if it makes you feel better. In my case, I was looking for portraits. I was told about a church that split because a particular preacher was not included in their hall of faith. I found it bizarre, so, when I travelled, I looked, and found only one church with portraits or a hall of faith. Now, mind you, I am not ina camp. If you travelled inside a camp, in particular the FBCH camp,you might find different. I am simply relating my personal experience, I cannot speak for others.

This is tangential to the point, but I raised the issue once before that many "churches" (mostly large ones) are identified by their pastor.  It's a tangential point because this is not limited to any denomination.  For example, all I have to say is, "Cornerstone Church in San Antonio".  I bet anyone here can tell me who the pastor is.  And if you live in San Antonio, you'll often see his picture in the TV-Style billboard outside the church as you drive by. 

Or how about Saddleback church?  Lakewood church? 

I even recall posting an article with a long list of churches identified by pastor with their pictures. 

So if it's a problem (and I think it is), it's not limited to IFB.

 

[prophet]

You belong to IFB? Good for you. 

I belong to the body of Christ.

Oh! The sanctimony!
Pass the potatoes....

If it's sanctimonious to identify with Christ, then I'm happily sanctimonious. 

The question is how much overlap is there between those who belong to IFB and those who belong to Christ? 

I don't have an answer, but the answer is "not a whole lot" according to some IFBs (the ones on here who have suggested that 20-40% of their church is made up of unbelievers).

I'd say that's a conservative estimate. Most of the pastors in IFBdum I've known thought it was better than 50 percent.

In some churches, the actual membership, signified by the "Wed. night crowd", would be on the 70% believer range, while the "attendees" of the Sun. morning circus would be well under 50%.

Anishinaabe

 

[HeDied4U]

I'm not, nor have I ever been, IFB, so I really don't have a dog in this fight. So of course, having said that....

IMHO, the validity of his argument went out the window the second he called IFBs stupid. No matter how many verses he could quote, I would read his post through the lens of him insulting others who just happen to not agree with him and I just wouldn't be able to take him as seriously as I'm sure he'd want to be.

So an insult changed everything I said? Did Jesus every insult anyone?

Honest question. Be a honest man and give me a honest answer?

Yes, it did.

Insult? No. Read them "the riot act" so to speak? You betcha.

What does Whited Sepulchres mean? What does hypocrite mean? What did Paul mean when he talked of silly women?

Will you reconsider?

I've found.....that the average person doesn't even know those words are in the bible. I bet you didn't as well.

Sorry CU, that's a bet you would lose.

You sure do like to make a lot of assumptions about people, don't you? People you have more than likely never met in real life, right? People you have only interacted with online, right?

:

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I'm not, nor have I ever been, IFB, so I really don't have a dog in this fight. So of course, having said that....

IMHO, the validity of his argument went out the window the second he called IFBs stupid. No matter how many verses he could quote, I would read his post through the lens of him insulting others who just happen to not agree with him and I just wouldn't be able to take him as seriously as I'm sure he'd want to be.

So an insult changed everything I said? Did Jesus every insult anyone?

Honest question. Be a honest man and give me a honest answer?

I think what you said was pretty dumb, aside from the insult.
I chalked the insult up to social inadequacy!

For a man that's left the IFB "movement".... you sure do defend them every chance you get. I once thought you might be different.... but I'm beginning to think you're really not.

Tell you what. Same challenge. I'll participate in a formal debate with you about this very subject. A moderator can edit anything they find offensive.

Up for it?

Sorry I disappoint you.

Point of clarification...you want me/somebody to debate you and the question is whether or not a good percentage of posters on this forum, brothers and sisters in Christ, are stupid?

Typical coward. Put me in my place with overwhelming understanding of those in John the Baptist.

As to the debate question, is your answer yes or no?

 

[Green Beret]

I'm not, nor have I ever been, IFB, so I really don't have a dog in this fight. So of course, having said that....

IMHO, the validity of his argument went out the window the second he called IFBs stupid. No matter how many verses he could quote, I would read his post through the lens of him insulting others who just happen to not agree with him and I just wouldn't be able to take him as seriously as I'm sure he'd want to be.

So an insult changed everything I said? Did Jesus every insult anyone?

Honest question. Be a honest man and give me a honest answer?

I think what you said was pretty dumb, aside from the insult.
I chalked the insult up to social inadequacy!

For a man that's left the IFB "movement".... you sure do defend them every chance you get. I once thought you might be different.... but I'm beginning to think you're really not.

Tell you what. Same challenge. I'll participate in a formal debate with you about this very subject. A moderator can edit anything they find offensive.

Up for it?

Sorry I disappoint you.

Point of clarification...you want me/somebody to debate you and the question is whether or not a good percentage of posters on this forum, brothers and sisters in Christ, are stupid?

Typical coward. Put me in my place with overwhelming understanding of those in John the Baptist.

As to the debate question, is your answer yes or no?

His answer to me was yes, brother, but I don't expect to see much in the way of follow through based on his history here.

It looks like he is/was emotionally damaged and illogically lashes out occasionally against others for perceived offenses against him.

To even ask to debate such a flawed premise as that contained in his OP really shows the extent of his brittleness and precarious hold on reality.

In other words, I think he is a few fries short of a happy meal.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

First. I don't believe you. I'm certain that you didn't pay enough attention to even notice it. Could you do a survey and get an accurate #?

Are you serious? Do you even read your posts before posting? Why would anyone in their right mind agree to enter into a debate with you if this is how you argue. "I don't believe you"? Are you still in Junior High?

You're "certain" that he didn't pay attention? You don't want to debate; you want to cram your made-up statistics down our throats.

You have no basis for your opinion other than personal observation; yet, you refuse to accept personal observation from anyone who disagrees with you. You are "certain" that they weren't paying attention.

Maybe you weren't paying attention. Maybe your forgone conclusions biased you to the point that you saw portraits of pastors where there were none. Are you sure you weren't looking at the missions wall?

Friendly advice: take an online debate class.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

My anecdotal evidence is contrary to the anecdotal evidence in the OP.
Is it possible that a group called "independent" might not all be the same?

Give us some facts CU. It is a logical fallacy to assume all IFB are the same as the small portion that you have come into contact with.

 

[christundivided]

I'm not, nor have I ever been, IFB, so I really don't have a dog in this fight. So of course, having said that....

IMHO, the validity of his argument went out the window the second he called IFBs stupid. No matter how many verses he could quote, I would read his post through the lens of him insulting others who just happen to not agree with him and I just wouldn't be able to take him as seriously as I'm sure he'd want to be.

So an insult changed everything I said? Did Jesus every insult anyone?

Honest question. Be a honest man and give me a honest answer?

Yes, it did.

Insult? No. Read them "the riot act" so to speak? You betcha.

What does Whited Sepulchres mean? What does hypocrite mean? What did Paul mean when he talked of silly women?

Will you reconsider?

I've found.....that the average person doesn't even know those words are in the bible. I bet you didn't as well.

Sorry CU, that's a bet you would lose.

You sure do like to make a lot of assumptions about people, don't you? People you have more than likely never met in real life, right? People you have only interacted with online, right?

:

Have you meet me? Apply the same standard or are you capable or rational thought. Just how many people have you meet from here?

Well.... I was actually trying to be nice. Its pretty dumb to say that using the word "stupid" is worse than calling someone a walking dead man. I reckon you don't seem to worry about your own actions.

 

[christundivided]

I'm not, nor have I ever been, IFB, so I really don't have a dog in this fight. So of course, having said that....

IMHO, the validity of his argument went out the window the second he called IFBs stupid. No matter how many verses he could quote, I would read his post through the lens of him insulting others who just happen to not agree with him and I just wouldn't be able to take him as seriously as I'm sure he'd want to be.

So an insult changed everything I said? Did Jesus every insult anyone?

Honest question. Be a honest man and give me a honest answer?

I think what you said was pretty dumb, aside from the insult.
I chalked the insult up to social inadequacy!

For a man that's left the IFB "movement".... you sure do defend them every chance you get. I once thought you might be different.... but I'm beginning to think you're really not.

Tell you what. Same challenge. I'll participate in a formal debate with you about this very subject. A moderator can edit anything they find offensive.

Up for it?

Sorry I disappoint you.

Point of clarification...you want me/somebody to debate you and the question is whether or not a good percentage of posters on this forum, brothers and sisters in Christ, are stupid?

Typical coward. Put me in my place with overwhelming understanding of those in John the Baptist.

As to the debate question, is your answer yes or no?

Read what I've written....

You're the ones that claim there is value in being Baptist. IF you saw no value in being Baptist then me calling them "stupid" wouldn't mean anything to you.

Take the challenge and debate me on the values of being Baptist.

 

[christundivided]

My anecdotal evidence is contrary to the anecdotal evidence in the OP.
Is it possible that a group called "independent" might not all be the same?

Give us some facts CU. It is a logical fallacy to assume all IFB are the same as the small portion that you have come into contact with.

I'm so glad you said this....

Do you know how a classification works don't you? If IFBs are so different.... then what value is the classification?

You can't make this up.....

 

[HeDied4U]

I'm not, nor have I ever been, IFB, so I really don't have a dog in this fight. So of course, having said that....

IMHO, the validity of his argument went out the window the second he called IFBs stupid. No matter how many verses he could quote, I would read his post through the lens of him insulting others who just happen to not agree with him and I just wouldn't be able to take him as seriously as I'm sure he'd want to be.

So an insult changed everything I said? Did Jesus every insult anyone?

Honest question. Be a honest man and give me a honest answer?

Yes, it did.

Insult? No. Read them "the riot act" so to speak? You betcha.

What does Whited Sepulchres mean? What does hypocrite mean? What did Paul mean when he talked of silly women?

Will you reconsider?

I've found.....that the average person doesn't even know those words are in the bible. I bet you didn't as well.

Sorry CU, that's a bet you would lose.

You sure do like to make a lot of assumptions about people, don't you? People you have more than likely never met in real life, right? People you have only interacted with online, right?

:

Have you meet me? Apply the same standard or are you capable of rational thought. Just how many people have you meet from here?

Well.... I was actually trying to be nice. Its pretty dumb to say that using the word "stupid" is worse than calling someone a walking dead man. I reckon you don't seem to worry about your own actions.

And it's pretty dumb to continue to call people names in an effort to make your point.

Yes, I see what I just did, so no need to point it out. I guess that's just because I'm not capable of rational thought. Gee, unlucky me.

Oh well, you have your thoughts and beliefs and I have my thoughts and beliefs. You're not likely to change my mind just as sure as I'm not likely to change yours.

 

[christundivided]

First. I don't believe you. I'm certain that you didn't pay enough attention to even notice it. Could you do a survey and get an accurate #?

Are you serious? Do you even read your posts before posting? Why would anyone in their right mind agree to enter into a debate with you if this is how you argue. "I don't believe you"? Are you still in Junior High?

Let me break it down for you. There are several reasons why I don't believe him.... I didn't go into all those reason. Obviously he could care less about a portrait of a pastor in a church. If he doesn't care to know, then why would I accept what he says he might remember about it?

You're "certain" that he didn't pay attention? You don't want to debate; you want to cram your made-up statistics down our throats.

No. I offered an alternative. Now granted. None of these are scientific. Why do you feel I should take your word for something when you don't care to recognize it or not?

You have no basis for your opinion other than personal observation; yet, you refuse to accept personal observation from anyone who disagrees with you. You are "certain" that they weren't paying attention.

You sure are proud of your end of the same boat we're both are in.

Maybe you weren't paying attention. Maybe your forgone conclusions biased you to the point that you saw portraits of pastors where there were none. Are you sure you weren't looking at the missions wall?

Mission walls? Do they have them in the church too???? With portraits of them? Man you guys sure are proud of one another.

Any prayer members on the walls? Any widows indeed? Any deacons? or Music directories?

Is there ANYONE ELSE BESIDES preachers you love to honor?

Friendly advice: take an online debate class.

This isn't a formal debate. I have offered to formally debate several of you and you're all cowards.