Would you pastors object to being called "brother" instead?

[The Rogue Tomato]

LOL... well... I am sure many pastors will face the "I didn't know you" declaration.

Many will say to me on that day, ?Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?  I mean, we're the ones who should be receiving double honor!!'

 

[FSSL]

Again. You have a rather poor understand of "double honor". Define "double honor.  Even the most ardent promoter of self..... can't change it mean anymore than "respect" and wages". This is the "double"........ honor. Not double respect or double wages or double thankfulness when compared to others....

You're messing this up very badly....

Will we just end up with "it doesn't mean that" discussion? Double honor is clear and univocal. It's application is not specifically drawn out by Paul because double honor can mean a whole pandora's box of things (which does and can include celebration parties and salary increases).

Paul's use of the term "honor" throughout 1 Timothy involved "respect (older men)," "provisions (widows)," technical term for financial support (widows), and pay for the leaders of the church illustrated by the ox and employees.

Paul says "DOUBLE" it in the same book he addressed older men and widows.

It is not a difficult concept, EXCEPT for those who do not want to honor a pastor.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

While we're focusing so heavily on 1 Timothy 5:17, let's examine it a little more closely.  Using the Greek, a literal translation would be something like:

The elders who lead well by example, let them be counted worthy of double honor/price, especially those who labor in the word and teach. 

Important elements to take away:

1. Elders is plural - this is not referring to "the pastor"
2. The leadership is by example, not by ruling
3. The Greek mistranslated as "preaching" is literally "labor in the word"

Word study for pro?st?mi, which is translated "ruling":

4291 pro?st?mi (from 4253 /pr?, "before" and 2476 /h?st?mi, "to stand") ? properly, "pre-standing," referring to a pre-set (well-established) character which provides the needed model to direct others, i.e. to positively impact them by example.

4291 /pro?st?mi ("diligent to take the lead") underlines the effectiveness of influencing people by having a respected reputation, i.e. one built on a solid "track-record." This happens by setting the example of excellence by living in faith (cf. Ro 12:3,8).


Now heap some double-honor and money on me, because I just labored in the word and taught you something.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Again. You have a rather poor understand of "double honor". Define "double honor.  Even the most ardent promoter of self..... can't change it mean anymore than "respect" and wages". This is the "double"........ honor. Not double respect or double wages or double thankfulness when compared to others....

You're messing this up very badly....

Will we just end up with "it doesn't mean that" discussion? Double honor is clear and univocal. It's application is not specifically drawn out by Paul because double honor can mean a whole pandora's box of things (which does and can include celebration parties and salary increases).

Paul's use of the term "honor" throughout 1 Timothy involved "respect (older men)," "provisions (widows)," technical term for financial support (widows), and pay for the leaders of the church illustrated by the ox and employees.

Paul says "DOUBLE" it in the same book he addressed older men and widows.

It is not a difficult concept, EXCEPT for those who do not want to honor a pastor.

I think you know the meaning is "two fold". Now actually "double" something "single fold". Respect and wages for those who rule well.

An Ox doesn't eat an entire field. The ox doesn't eat "double" what he needs.

Personally, I don't see very many doing "well".....

 

[praise_yeshua]

Now heap some double-honor and money on me, because I just labored in the word and taught you something.

LOL.... that would make sense if that's what its really saying.... Which is what is taught in the typical assembly...

 

[FSSL]

Again. You have a rather poor understand of "double honor". Define "double honor.  Even the most ardent promoter of self..... can't change it mean anymore than "respect" and wages". This is the "double"........ honor. Not double respect or double wages or double thankfulness when compared to others....

You're messing this up very badly....

Will we just end up with "it doesn't mean that" discussion? Double honor is clear and univocal. It's application is not specifically drawn out by Paul because double honor can mean a whole pandora's box of things (which does and can include celebration parties and salary increases).

Paul's use of the term "honor" throughout 1 Timothy involved "respect (older men)," "provisions (widows)," technical term for financial support (widows), and pay for the leaders of the church illustrated by the ox and employees.

Paul says "DOUBLE" it in the same book he addressed older men and widows.

It is not a difficult concept, EXCEPT for those who do not want to honor a pastor.

I think you know the meaning is "two fold". Now actually "double" something "single fold". Respect and wages for those who rule well.

An Ox doesn't eat an entire field. The ox doesn't eat "double" what he needs.

Personally, I don't see very many doing "well".....

Double, twice as much, two-fold... Synonyms

The Greek word means all of those things. Distinction without a difference.

The ox is OFFERED twice the grain.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Again. You have a rather poor understand of "double honor". Define "double honor.  Even the most ardent promoter of self..... can't change it mean anymore than "respect" and wages". This is the "double"........ honor. Not double respect or double wages or double thankfulness when compared to others....

You're messing this up very badly....

Will we just end up with "it doesn't mean that" discussion? Double honor is clear and univocal. It's application is not specifically drawn out by Paul because double honor can mean a whole pandora's box of things (which does and can include celebration parties and salary increases).

Paul's use of the term "honor" throughout 1 Timothy involved "respect (older men)," "provisions (widows)," technical term for financial support (widows), and pay for the leaders of the church illustrated by the ox and employees.

Paul says "DOUBLE" it in the same book he addressed older men and widows.

It is not a difficult concept, EXCEPT for those who do not want to honor a pastor.

I think you know the meaning is "two fold". Now actually "double" something "single fold". Respect and wages for those who rule well.

An Ox doesn't eat an entire field. The ox doesn't eat "double" what he needs.

Personally, I don't see very many doing "well".....

Double, twice as much, two-fold... Synonyms

The Greek word means all of those things. Distinction without a difference.

The ox is OFFERED twice the grain.

So he gets twice the grain and nothing else?

So he gets twice the respect..... twice the wages.... twice everything?

You can't be serious...

No. Two fold doesn't always mean "double" something.

 

[FSSL]

Apparently I am the only one who knows what the word means.

Double is a good starting point.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Again. You have a rather poor understand of "double honor". Define "double honor.  Even the most ardent promoter of self..... can't change it mean anymore than "respect" and wages". This is the "double"........ honor. Not double respect or double wages or double thankfulness when compared to others....

You're messing this up very badly....

Will we just end up with "it doesn't mean that" discussion? Double honor is clear and univocal. It's application is not specifically drawn out by Paul because double honor can mean a whole pandora's box of things (which does and can include celebration parties and salary increases).

Paul's use of the term "honor" throughout 1 Timothy involved "respect (older men)," "provisions (widows)," technical term for financial support (widows), and pay for the leaders of the church illustrated by the ox and employees.

Paul says "DOUBLE" it in the same book he addressed older men and widows.

It is not a difficult concept, EXCEPT for those who do not want to honor a pastor.

I think you know the meaning is "two fold". Now actually "double" something "single fold". Respect and wages for those who rule well.

An Ox doesn't eat an entire field. The ox doesn't eat "double" what he needs.

Personally, I don't see very many doing "well".....

Double, twice as much, two-fold... Synonyms

The Greek word means all of those things. Distinction without a difference.

The ox is OFFERED twice the grain.

So he gets twice the grain and nothing else?

So he gets twice the respect..... twice the wages.... twice everything?

You can't be serious...

No. Two fold doesn't always mean "double" something.

It's also probably being used as an expression.  Like, wow, that guy is twice as intelligent as I am!  That doesn't mean he literally has an IQ of 40, er, I mean 300. 

 

[prophet]

Oh dear God no...... It wouldn't be giving proper honor to whom honor is due...

Just curious, and not tryin' to call you out, but while we subjectively quibble over church signs and what constitutes the proper honor that should be shown, how is the above phrase not much more explicitly a form of taking God's name in vain?

Starting a thread....

Earnestly Contend

 

[Walt]

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Why do we call anyone pastor, especially since the title has become synonymous with rabbi + teacher/instructor? 

Instead of "Pastor Bob", shouldn't we be referring to him as "Brother Bob"?  That's actually how the assembly I attend works.  Everyone is "brother" or "sister" regardless of their roles.

Lots of random rambling:  Some of the traditions in the South drive me crazy, especially the name: All women are referred to as "Miz" - the single women are "Miz First_Name" and the married women are "Miz Last_Name".  It's "Mrs" (missus), not "Miz", and it's "Miss", not "Miz".  I grew up in a more formal age. People who are older than we were were to be called "Mr ---".  And we were to use titles where appropriate.  Thus, I have never been a church with "Pastor Bob" -- It's always been "Pastor Zingle".  Pastor is a title, and it is the most unique title.  I don't care for "Preacher" - deacons and evangelists in the church can preach, but "Pastor" is a more restrictive title.  For older men in the church, it is "Bro Last_Name" -- the younger men are often called by their first names sans title.  I don't care for the title "Sister" very much -- just not used to it.  I prefer "Mrs Last_Name" for the married women.  Young girls are generally called by their first name, unless one is being super formal, then it is "Miss Last_Name".

I don't think that the passage quoted is intended to stop all titles from being used, but it needs to be studied.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Anecdotal evidence to prove stereotypes. This is safe ground for those who will not change their mind.

Most of the responses were distantly related anecdotal evidence.  "Most of us call our pastor Joe."  "People call me Joe".  "I don't mind if people call me Joe". 

For those pastors who said they wouldn't object, I challenge them to put their money where their mouth is.  Remove their names entirely from the church sign.  List themselves as "brother Joe" in the church bulletin.  Open the floor to people who want to contribute their thoughts during a sermon.  And so on...

In other words, stop being the center and focal point of your church.  You're a brother on equal standing with the rest of the brethren.  Behave that way.  Represent yourself that way.

Our church sign has Eastland Baptist Church at the top.

It has and Christian School at the bottom.

In the middle it is an electronic sign.

It doesn't have any pastors names on the sign (never has).

I think you project your totalitarianism church view on churches that do not operate the way your church does.

Now are there churches that operate in the Jack Hyles/Bob Gray, MOG, totalitarianism, authoritative way of church...yes there are (I have been a part of them). Does every church that isn't a house church operate this way? No they don't.

 

[FSSL]

Good pastors are worthy of at least twice the honor given to old men and widows... Let that one sink in

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Why do we call anyone pastor, especially since the title has become synonymous with rabbi + teacher/instructor? 

Instead of "Pastor Bob", shouldn't we be referring to him as "Brother Bob"?  That's actually how the assembly I attend works.  Everyone is "brother" or "sister" regardless of their roles.

Lots of random rambling:  Some of the traditions in the South drive me crazy, especially the name: All women are referred to as "Miz" - the single women are "Miz First_Name" and the married women are "Miz Last_Name".  It's "Mrs" (missus), not "Miz", and it's "Miss", not "Miz".  I grew up in a more formal age. People who are older than we were were to be called "Mr ---".  And we were to use titles where appropriate.  Thus, I have never been a church with "Pastor Bob" -- It's always been "Pastor Zingle".  Pastor is a title, and it is the most unique title.  I don't care for "Preacher" - deacons and evangelists in the church can preach, but "Pastor" is a more restrictive title.  For older men in the church, it is "Bro Last_Name" -- the younger men are often called by their first names sans title.  I don't care for the title "Sister" very much -- just not used to it.  I prefer "Mrs Last_Name" for the married women.  Young girls are generally called by their first name, unless one is being super formal, then it is "Miss Last_Name".

I don't think that the passage quoted is intended to stop all titles from being used, but it needs to be studied.

I realize you're just rambling, but the passage has nothing to do with intending to stop all titles from being used.  Jesus is telling us not to refer to our brothers with titles that rightfully only belong to Him.  Since "pastor" has come to mean the same thing as "rabbi/teacher/instructor", it should not be used for our brothers.  It rightfully belongs to Christ alone. 

 

[FSSL]

Except that Paul does refer to gifted men with descriptive titles... evangelists, pastors, teachers...

Context is everything.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Except that Paul does refer to gifted men with descriptive titles... evangelists, pastors, teachers...

Context is everything.

Context is everything, and you're missing it.  Paul is talking about jobs, not titles.  If Paul was assigning titles, he would be contradicting Christ (which actually isn't all that far-fetched, since Paul still had a good deal of Pharisee left in him). 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I see a pattern of two problems on here.

1. Mistranslation:  For example, the Pharisees and pastors on here favor "ruler" and "obey" when the actual Greek is saying "leader by example" and "have confidence in". 

2. Favoring Paul over Christ:  Sorry, but the words of Paul are not on the same level as the words of Christ.  Paul even admits this sometimes when he notes that "this is from me, not the Lord".  So when Paul says something you Pharisees and pastors like, you favor what Paul says over what Christ says.

In other words, you're filtering Scripture through what makes you feel good about yourselves and your positions, i.e., you are exalting yourselves.  Not to worry, though.  As Jesus said, you will be humbled. 

 

[FSSL]

See... When you argue that one part of Scripture is greater than another, the fault lies with the interpreter.

Your attempt to foist a division between Christ and Paul's teaching is fundamentally a logic error. You violate the unity of Scripture by not treating a context within its own context.

Paul's teachings do not have a hint of Pharisaicalism.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I see a pattern of two problems on here.

1. Mistranslation:  For example, the Pharisees and pastors on here favor "ruler" and "obey" when the actual Greek is saying "leader by example" and "have confidence in". 

2. Favoring Paul over Christ:  Sorry, but the words of Paul are not on the same level as the words of Christ.  Paul even admits this sometimes when he notes that "this is from me, not the Lord".  So when Paul says something you Pharisees and pastors like, you favor what Paul says over what Christ says.

In other words, you're filtering Scripture through what makes you feel good about yourselves and your positions, i.e., you are exalting yourselves.  Not to worry, though.  As Jesus said, you will be humbled.

You argue against an extreme position that isn't held by most here.
I have no problem understanding that a Pastor, as a God appointed position of leadership in the church, should be a servant leader...one who leads by example.
That, in essence, is the definition of a true leader in any endeavor.

 

[ALAYMAN]

See... When you argue that one part of Scripture is greater than another, the fault lies with the interpreter.

Your attempt to foist a division between Christ and Paul's teaching is fundamentally a logic error. You violate the unity of Scripture by not treating a context within its own context.

Paul's teachings do not have a hint of Pharisaicalism.

If this was a UFC match the ref would be grabbing you and pulling you off TRT, but unfortunately for him, he likes the abuse and keeps coming back for more.  What he doesn't recognize in his mauling is that others are watching him come apart at the seams on this issue.  A one trick pony indeed, and a misguided horsey.