Your thoughts on tithing?

[no value]

I’d like to weigh-in on this subject, but my contribution comes from a different angle. First and foremost, I believe in tithing. My family tithes, not because of any scriptural reference, but rather out of love and gratitude to our Savior. And God has blessed us as He promised.

I served on the deacon board of the IFB church we formerly attended. The pastor had a bad habit of making expenditures outside of his authority, as agreed upon by the constitution and by-laws. His favorite line when he tried to explain his expenditure is the classic one---“It’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission.” I had heard that expression so many times, that even to this day, when I hear anyone say it, I see my former pastor in my mind.

We had a young man in our church attending a Christian College, but he was struggling financially. He was a good kid who worked on campus, but the money he made just didn’t seem to cover all of his expenses. A couple of men approached me privately about joining them to help the kid out a little every month. I thought it was a noble gesture and was happy to contribute a little into the “John Fund” (not his real name). A few other men were approached in similar manner, and all told, I think there were 5-6 that helped the kid through school.

Not long after the John Fund was up-and-running, the pastor broached the subject in our deacons meeting. He was not happy with our little funding project. He said he had received several complaints from parents of other college students expecting the church to “kick-in” for their children’s college education.

I’m inclined to think the complaints really happened. Sounds like some of the people I used to attend church with. No one ever complained to me, however, I think the pastor used this “situation” to justify his continued unauthorized spending.

It was in the deacons meeting that he demanded the church contribute to all the students’ college education in good IFB colleges. That’s code-language for the colleges our HAC-grad pastor approved. But the church’s finances could not support such an undertaking. The pastor sulked, but in the end was told, “If you can find the money, we can do this.”

Soon afterward the pastor had a bold idea. He suggested the church stop tithing 10% of its income toward missions and let the congregation pick up the mission support through faith-promise giving. Several of us on the board had misgivings about the suggestion. We believed (and I continue to believe) that God blessed our church the more we give to the Lord, individually and corporately.

In the end, the pastor got his way. The 10% church tithe was freed-up to finance the college fund and other of the pastor’s pet projects.

I hadn’t thought about this in years. The posts on the subject jogged my memory bank. I wonder now looking back if we did right.

BTW – the pastor still there. My family and I left 9 years ago as well as over 25 families. The church that once saw a weekly attendance of 300+ is (that last I heard) struggling to see 100. I’m not suggesting the money thing and the precipitous loss of members are related, but I wonder if perhaps God did indeed withdrew some of His blessing on my old church.

I apologize for the long post and appreciate your attention.

I'm going to be away from my desk for a while, so I won't be able to quickly comment on any responses/opinions/feedback.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm sure there are more reasons that you mentioned..... for the decline in membership.

Question, what good is it to give..... if you're NOT giving to the right place..... the Spirit of God wants you to give? Should we just throw money into the wind?

Giving to your local church doesn't = giving to God. Can you do the "Math" to make that equation balance?

 

[IFB X-Files]

In the end, the pastor got his way.

Yup.  'Nuff said.

Your story reminds me of what just happened at our little assembly.  We've had a mom and her kids visiting and starting to become regular.  You could instantly tell upon their first visit that none of the kids had ever been in church before.  Well, they've been coming and growing and getting involved.  The one teen girl had a birthday and it was announced by pastor.  He made a comment that "Go by and shake her hand and put some money in it".  We did, and you know what happened next.  The murmuring started.
"How come pastor never said to do that when my boy had a birthday?"  Blah, blah, blah.

This family goes through hard times.  Pastor knew it and that's why he said what he said.  But Christians are still rotten sinners and can get wicked when it comes to things like that.

 

[no value]

Amen to that. In my story the complaining parents had the resourses to pay for their children's education. I remember thinking the green-eyed monster had showed up.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Amen to that. In my story the complaining parents had the resourses to pay for their children's education. I remember thinking the green-eyed monster had showed up.

1Ti 5:21  I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

While I agree with some what you're saying.....

You can't do something for one member of the church and not for others. You can justify it all you want. Its still an issue.

This is why so many things should stay OUT OF THE CHURCH.

Church isn't what's been made to be. I always wanted to know why the pastor gets all those appreciation days and the members generally get very little. I'd like inform a few people, its not easy being a Christian.... PERIOD. If you going to esteem someone, then esteem everyone.

 

[no value]

Amen to that. In my story the complaining parents had the resourses to pay for their children's education. I remember thinking the green-eyed monster had showed up.

1Ti 5:21  I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

While I agree with some what you're saying.....

You can't do something for one member of the church and not for others. You can justify it all you want. Its still an issue.

This is why so many things should stay OUT OF THE CHURCH.

Church isn't what's been made to be. I always wanted to know why the pastor gets all those appreciation days and the members generally get very little. I'd like inform a few people, its not easy being a Christian.... PERIOD. If you going to esteem someone, then esteem everyone.

I appreciate your input...however, in my haste to explain a situation in a long post, I probably didn't emphasize that the "John Fund" was a private endowment from a few people in response to a legimate need. To my knowledge nothing was disclosed to the church nor was the congregation ever soliciated.

My opinion of the complainers was of a group of cry-babies that would let a good kid drop-out of school rather than take care of their own responsiblities. 

Thanks for the post. You have a legitimate point.

 

[IFB X-Files]

You can't do something for one member of the church and not for others. You can justify it all you want. Its still an issue.

Do you really believe what you write?  Do you mean that if one family needs food that the church has to provide food for everyone?  We had a family that had a need of a new window AC unit.  We got them one.  Do we have to buy every family a new window AC unit?  Is this what Paul is requiring?  I trow not. 

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Godly Christians understand these things.  Legalists never will.

 

[IFB X-Files]

I appreciate your input...however, in my haste to explain a situation in a long post, I probably didn't emphasize that the "John Fund" was a private endowment from a few people in response to a legimate need. To my knowledge nothing was disclosed to the church nor was the congregation ever solicited.

I understood exactly what you said.  No need to apologize to someone who finds fault with everything.

 

[no value]

You can't do something for one member of the church and not for others. You can justify it all you want. Its still an issue.

Do you really believe what you write?  Do you mean that if one family needs food that the church has to provide food for everyone?  We had a family that had a need of a new window AC unit.  We got them one.  Do we have to buy every family a new window AC unit?  Is this what Paul is requiring?  I trow not. 

AMEN!



2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Godly Christians understand these things.  Legalists never will.

 

[rsc2a]

Amen to that. In my story the complaining parents had the resourses to pay for their children's education. I remember thinking the green-eyed monster had showed up.

1Ti 5:21  I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

While I agree with some what you're saying.....

You can't do something for one member of the church and not for others. You can justify it all you want. Its still an issue.

You're using a passage about showing favoritism to the rich, a passage immediately preceded by instructions on helping the poor, by saying the church shouldn't help the poor?

This thing you keep describing...it's a bizarre depraved version of religion, but it is assuredly not Christianity.

This is why so many things should stay OUT OF THE CHURCH.

Church isn't what's been made to be. I always wanted to know why the pastor gets all those appreciation days and the members generally get very little. I'd like inform a few people, its not easy being a Christian.... PERIOD. If you going to esteem someone, then esteem everyone.

The church is the community of faith. What you are describing is logistically impossible if the two people belonged to the same community as was described

 

[praise_yeshua]

You can't do something for one member of the church and not for others. You can justify it all you want. Its still an issue.

Do you really believe what you write?  Do you mean that if one family needs food that the church has to provide food for everyone?  We had a family that had a need of a new window AC unit.  We got them one.  Do we have to buy every family a new window AC unit?  Is this what Paul is requiring?  I trow not. 

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Godly Christians understand these things.  Legalists never will.

I haven't been called a legalist in decades. I was talking about esteeming someone by telling everyone in the church to go by and give them some money.... while never having done the same for everyone else in the same situation.

No, there is not reason to buy a AC for someone that doesn't need it. BUT, if two people need a AC unit, then by all means, don't help one and not the other.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I appreciate your input...however, in my haste to explain a situation in a long post, I probably didn't emphasize that the "John Fund" was a private endowment from a few people in response to a legimate need. To my knowledge nothing was disclosed to the church nor was the congregation ever solicited.

I understood exactly what you said.  No need to apologize to someone who finds fault with everything.

I find fault with lies, I don't oppose the Truth.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Amen to that. In my story the complaining parents had the resourses to pay for their children's education. I remember thinking the green-eyed monster had showed up.

1Ti 5:21  I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

While I agree with some what you're saying.....

You can't do something for one member of the church and not for others. You can justify it all you want. Its still an issue.

You're using a passage about showing favoritism to the rich, a passage immediately preceded by instructions on helping the poor, by saying the church shouldn't help the poor?

This thing you keep describing...it's a bizarre depraved version of religion, but it is assuredly not Christianity.

This is why so many things should stay OUT OF THE CHURCH.

Church isn't what's been made to be. I always wanted to know why the pastor gets all those appreciation days and the members generally get very little. I'd like inform a few people, its not easy being a Christian.... PERIOD. If you going to esteem someone, then esteem everyone.

The church is the community of faith. What you are describing is logistically impossible if the two people belonged to the same community as was described

You're such a little whiner. I don't know where you come up with such nonsense. I never said any such things.

You're obsessed with me. I correct you a few times and you want to follow me around and try to get even. It really is pitiful!

 

[Walt]

I’d like to weigh-in on this subject, but my contribution comes from a different angle. First and foremost, I believe in tithing. My family tithes, not because of any scriptural reference, but rather out of love and gratitude to our Savior. And God has blessed us as He promised.

I served on the deacon board of the IFB church we formerly attended. The pastor had a bad habit of making expenditures outside of his authority, as agreed upon by the constitution and by-laws. His favorite line when he tried to explain his expenditure is the classic one---“It’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission.” I had heard that expression so many times, that even to this day, when I hear anyone say it, I see my former pastor in my mind.

We had a young man in our church attending a Christian College, but he was struggling financially. He was a good kid who worked on campus, but the money he made just didn’t seem to cover all of his expenses. A couple of men approached me privately about joining them to help the kid out a little every month. I thought it was a noble gesture and was happy to contribute a little into the “John Fund” (not his real name). A few other men were approached in similar manner, and all told, I think there were 5-6 that helped the kid through school.

Not long after the John Fund was up-and-running, the pastor broached the subject in our deacons meeting. He was not happy with our little funding project. He said he had received several complaints from parents of other college students expecting the church to “kick-in” for their children’s college education.

I’m inclined to think the complaints really happened. Sounds like some of the people I used to attend church with. No one ever complained to me, however, I think the pastor used this “situation” to justify his continued unauthorized spending.

It was in the deacons meeting that he demanded the church contribute to all the students’ college education in good IFB colleges. That’s code-language for the colleges our HAC-grad pastor approved. But the church’s finances could not support such an undertaking. The pastor sulked, but in the end was told, “If you can find the money, we can do this.”

Soon afterward the pastor had a bold idea. He suggested the church stop tithing 10% of its income toward missions and let the congregation pick up the mission support through faith-promise giving. Several of us on the board had misgivings about the suggestion. We believed (and I continue to believe) that God blessed our church the more we give to the Lord, individually and corporately.

In the end, the pastor got his way. The 10% church tithe was freed-up to finance the college fund and other of the pastor’s pet projects.

I hadn’t thought about this in years. The posts on the subject jogged my memory bank. I wonder now looking back if we did right.

BTW – the pastor still there. My family and I left 9 years ago as well as over 25 families. The church that once saw a weekly attendance of 300+ is (that last I heard) struggling to see 100. I’m not suggesting the money thing and the precipitous loss of members are related, but I wonder if perhaps God did indeed withdrew some of His blessing on my old church.

I apologize for the long post and appreciate your attention.

I'm going to be away from my desk for a while, so I won't be able to quickly comment on any responses/opinions/feedback.

Thanks for posting.  A couple of thoughts

1) By spending money on unathorized projects, that pastor is effectively embezzling the church funds.  Had I been a deacon, I would have forgiven him, but insisted that he pay back the unauthorized expenditure.

2) I have long wondered if "faith-promise missions" was invented so that churches didn't have to give 10% of the general fund to missions.

I will also say that I have given at least 10%; if the Jews under the law could tithe, how much better should I be able to do?  There have been lean times and tough times -- giving has fluctuated between just getting to 10% and close to 30%, but that is nothing to do with me, but rather, the goodness of God.

 

[IFB X-Files]

... that pastor is effectively embezzling the church funds. 

Funny you mention embezzling.  In 2010 we candidated for a church in .....  It was a nice property and nice folks but run by trustees and no deacons.  Long story short I declined to candidate and told them so after the Sunday morning service.  There was just something wrong there.

A few months ago I checked the church's Facebook page and saw they had moved.  What??  They moved to a run-down commercial building.  I called the pastor.  I introduced myself and told him that I was the reason he was there and asked what happened.  Bottom line:  The trustee that was "trouble" when I was there (his wife was also the church secretary), they were embezzling from the church.  Because of hidden debt and IRS issues, they had to sell the property.  The pastor started to suspect something was wrong after he's been there about 10 months.

Church is doing well in the new property.  They've remodeled and it looks nice.  All the folks that were there when we were there have left over the trustee's embezzling so he has all new people.

Let the church roll on!

 

[no value]

1) By spending money on unathorized projects, that pastor is effectively embezzling the church funds.  Had I been a deacon, I would have forgiven him, but insisted that he pay back the unauthorized expenditure.

2) I have long wondered if "faith-promise missions" was invented so that churches didn't have to give 10% of the general fund to missions.

I will also say that I have given at least 10%; if the Jews under the law could tithe, how much better should I be able to do?  There have been lean times and tough times -- giving has fluctuated between just getting to 10% and close to 30%, but that is nothing to do with me, but rather, the goodness of God.

Thanks for you input and a good observation.

At the time I served on the board I never thought the pastor's unautorized purchaes were "embezzling church funds." His purchases were for the church, and most of them served a purpose. Here's the most vivid memory. Our church had a bus and van ministry (3 buses and 2 vans). I can't remeber how many busses the pastor bought without discussion or authorization. He was limited to a certain dollar amount on purchases. He'd just buy them and we would find out about them on Sunday when we saw the buses in the parking lot.

I don't mean to suggest that the board was so tight-fisted with the money that the pastor or anyone had to beg the board for anything. Far from it! The pastor pretty much got whatever he asked for. We had a previous pastor who had little regard for the church finances. He's a good man, a very dedicated preacher and soul-winner extraordinaire, he just didn't think too much about money. When he left it was discovered the church finances was a disaster. It was a matter of embezzlement; it was a matter of neglect.

The new pastor (the pastor I've been writing about) asked (begged) the board to handle all financial affairs of the church rather than just one person as before. The board reluctantly took on these additional duties only to see the pastor flagerantly disregard the procedures he (and the board) put in place.

Stepping away from my desk again. I will check back in a few hours.

 

[TidesofTruth]

1) By spending money on unathorized projects, that pastor is effectively embezzling the church funds.  Had I been a deacon, I would have forgiven him, but insisted that he pay back the unauthorized expenditure.

2) I have long wondered if "faith-promise missions" was invented so that churches didn't have to give 10% of the general fund to missions.

I will also say that I have given at least 10%; if the Jews under the law could tithe, how much better should I be able to do?  There have been lean times and tough times -- giving has fluctuated between just getting to 10% and close to 30%, but that is nothing to do with me, but rather, the goodness of God.

Thanks for you input and a good observation.

At the time I served on the board I never thought the pastor's unautorized purchaes were "embezzling church funds." His purchases were for the church, and most of them served a purpose. Here's the most vivid memory. Our church had a bus and van ministry (3 buses and 2 vans). I can't remeber how many busses the pastor bought without discussion or authorization. He was limited to a certain dollar amount on purchases. He'd just buy them and we would find out about them on Sunday when we saw the buses in the parking lot.

I don't mean to suggest that the board was so tight-fisted with the money that the pastor or anyone had to beg the board for anything. Far from it! The pastor pretty much got whatever he asked for. We had a previous pastor who had little regard for the church finances. He's a good man, a very dedicated preacher and soul-winner extraordinaire, he just didn't think too much about money. When he left it was discovered the church finances was a disaster. It was a matter of embezzlement; it was a matter of neglect.

The new pastor (the pastor I've been writing about) asked (begged) the board to handle all financial affairs of the church rather than just one person as before. The board reluctantly took on these additional duties only to see the pastor flagerantly disregard the procedures he (and the board) put in place.

Stepping away from my desk again. I will check back in a few hours.

Actually:

Criminal conversion: Embezzlement is a crime against ownership; i.e. voiding the right of the owner to control the disposition and use of the property entrusted to the embezzler.[3] The element of criminal conversion requires substantial interference with the property rights of the owner. (This is unlike larceny, wherein the slightest movement of the property, when accompanied by the intent to permanently deprive the owner of possession of the property is sufficient cause.) Wiki

 

[no value]

Actually:

Criminal conversion: Embezzlement is a crime against ownership; i.e. voiding the right of the owner to control the disposition and use of the property entrusted to the embezzler.[3] The element of criminal conversion requires substantial interference with the property rights of the owner. (This is unlike larceny, wherein the slightest movement of the property, when accompanied by the intent to permanently deprive the owner of possession of the property is sufficient cause.) Wiki

Now! Never read that before. Thanks for the heads-up.

This thread has taken a strange twist. I guess I'm partly responsible. In my attempt to comment about a church tithing of its income as opposed to faith-promise mission giving, the course of the conversations seems to have veered off the track. I apologize.

I no longer attend the church mentioned. My family's departure was not pretty (or quiet). The reason for our separation was never money. I have never thought the pastor's financial issues ever bordered on criminal. He is a good man. My thoughts about the unauthorized spending was more of an arrogant "don't question the man-of-God in anything that he does" attitude that was (and perhaps still is) evident.

Looking back through the prism of a decade, i wonder if faith promise decision was the right one.

 

[IFB X-Files]

I haven't been called a legalist in decades.

You are correct.  Wrong word.  Pharisee would be more appropriate.

I can see you now standing with the Pharisee's, with the OT Law in your hand, correcting Jesus for picking corn on the Sabbath.

Guys like you are a dime-a-dozen.

 

[subllibrm]

1Ti 5:21  I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

While I agree with some what you're saying.....

You can't do something for one member of the church and not for others. You can justify it all you want. Its still an issue.

This is why so many things should stay OUT OF THE CHURCH.

Church isn't what's been made to be. I always wanted to know why the pastor gets all those appreciation days and the members generally get very little. I'd like inform a few people, its not easy being a Christian.... PERIOD. If you going to esteem someone, then esteem everyone.

Are you not making the same assumption that the others have in these stories? In effect you are saying that the gifts and aid were motivated by partiality.

If the Lord leads me to hand money to someone, am I not disobedient if I refuse? Am I to refuse because someone else may be offended by the act? Who are you or anyone else to question whether or not my act is wrongly motivated?

The above is in regards to individuals helping individuals.

Churches helping individuals can get sticky. Short term mission trips are a good example. Who gets help? Who decides what trip is "worthy" of church funds? I have seen that ruffle feathers more than once.