Is God angry with sin , and was sin the Sovereign plan of God ?

Baptist Renegade said:
The scripture is clear - CHRIST DIED FOR SINNERS - 1 Tim 1:5. We may (and do) proclaim this with boldness and confidence.

Now consider the following:

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

No one comes to Christ unless the FATHER draws him (Jn 6:44) so if they have any interest whatsoever, it is because the Father is drawing them to the Son. If they come to the son, they do not have to wonder whether or not they are "Elect." All they need to do is "Make their calling and election sure (2 Pet 1:10) by "Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 16:31).

It really does not get much simpler! If they are elect, they will come. If they are not elect, they will not come although your "Witness" will testify against them on the day of judgment.

Our job is not to "Get them to come." Our job is to FAITHFULLY PROCLAIM the word of God which is able to make one wise unto salvation (2 Tim 3:15) and from there, God will draw such as are "Ordained to Eternal Life" (Acts 13:48).

Where "Seeker Friendly" types often mess up is in their attempt to make the Gospel Message more palpable and appealing to the natural man. They may downplay matters of sin, repentance, and judgment and focus on John 3:16 and "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life!" John 3:16 is perhaps the most beautiful verse in the bible and through this passage, I personally came to faith personally but It had no meaning to me until I realized I was a sinner who deserved HELL!
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Not to quibble, but the wording is that Christ came into the world to save sinners. Where it says He died, it says He died for us, while we were yet sinners.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Yes, the presentation language does (or should) not discriminate, but the "limited atonement" Calvinist aspect of the gospel presentation (via literal agnosticism of who the elect might be amongst those having the gospel presented to them) is inherently slightly dissonant IMNSHO for the proclaimer. It just seems to me that those who are honest about the soteriological implications of their deterministic Calvinism might have difficulty in saying "Christ died for you" to a prospective candidate, when in actuality, per Calvinist mechanics, that may be untrue if the person they are pleading with to be saved is not among Christ's elect. At a minimum they have to use precise language (or maybe "Christ may have died for you", lol), and the whole mess leads to paralysis by analysis. 😁
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LOL. First, put your thesaurus away. Second, I think "mystery" would be a better word choice where you were wanting to use the word "ignorance" and used "agnosticism" instead, lol.

Third, you can see by BR's and Ransom's responses, that there is indeed a difference in the "presentation language" used. There is no dissonance.

Fourth, the only ones facing soteriological difficulties would be the ones preaching a universal act in saying Christ died for all when obviously all are not saved and therefore rendering Christ's work ineffectual and impersonal.

As far as the scope of the work of Redemption is concerned, one only needs to look to our schoolmaster, the law, and the representative stones on the breastplate of the high priest. Can anyone find the stone for Egypt?

What about Tyre?

What about Sidon?
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
The question was to provoke thought it wasn’t that anyone who knows God to attempt to reduce Him in anyway. God is Holy wether men know and understand that or not. Interesting that you would mention idolatry. Ignoring the truth and context of scripture to follow Calvin is pretty much the definition of idolatry. I follow Jesus and no I will not repent of that.
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"Calvinist" is a term applied to anyone who believes in the sovereignty of God in Salvation. It is not describing a disciple of Calvin.

I think Pauline would be a more apt description if my "-ism." But as C. H. Spurgeon famously said, "Calvinism is the Gospel and nothing else."

And I have my own private opinion, that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism. Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in his dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor, I think, can we preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the peculiar redemption which Christ made for his elect and chosen people...​
 
Ekklesian said:
"Calvinist" is a term applied to anyone who believes in the sovereignty of God in Salvation. It is not describing a disciple of Calvin.

I think Pauline would be a more apt description if my "-ism." But as C. H. Spurgeon famously said, "Calvinism is the Gospel and nothing else."

And I have my own private opinion, that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism. Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in his dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor, I think, can we preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the peculiar redemption which Christ made for his elect and chosen people...​
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I believe the term Christian applies to those who are “ in Christ” while Calvinism applies to those who follow Calvin’s theology. Anyone can claim anything they want to but claiming does not mean it’s true.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Sure they do. The key to what voice said is found in the Calvinist teaching that all who actually do believe will be saved, but, none will/would ever first believe without being zapped first, lol.
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By "zapped," you mean a work of grace in the heart, and that is true.
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
I believe the term Christian applies to those who are “ in Christ” while Calvinism applies to those who follow Calvin’s theology. Anyone can claim anything they want to but claiming does not mean it’s true.
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LOL. C.H. Spurgeon is called a Calvinist, but he parted with Calvin on many doctrines.
 
Baptist Renegade said:
The scripture is clear - CHRIST DIED FOR SINNERS - 1 Tim 1:5. We may (and do) proclaim this with boldness and confidence.

Now consider the following:

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

No one comes to Christ unless the FATHER draws him (Jn 6:44) so if they have any interest whatsoever, it is because the Father is drawing them to the Son. If they come to the son, they do not have to wonder whether or not they are "Elect." All they need to do is "Make their calling and election sure (2 Pet 1:10) by "Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 16:31).

It really does not get much simpler! If they are elect, they will come. If they are not elect, they will not come although your "Witness" will testify against them on the day of judgment.

Our job is not to "Get them to come." Our job is to FAITHFULLY PROCLAIM the word of God which is able to make one wise unto salvation (2 Tim 3:15) and from there, God will draw such as are "Ordained to Eternal Life" (Acts 13:48).

Where "Seeker Friendly" types often mess up is in their attempt to make the Gospel Message more palpable and appealing to the natural man. They may downplay matters of sin, repentance, and judgment and focus on John 3:16 and "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life!" John 3:16 is perhaps the most beautiful verse in the bible and through this passage, I personally came to faith personally but It had no meaning to me until I realized I was a sinner who deserved HELL!
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I appreciate what you’re saying, but Paul said we ought to try to persuade men. It doesn’t make you seeker sensitive to have a passion for souls which causes you to plead with them to avoid damnation.
 
Ekklesian said:
Didn't you save yourself? I mean, you possessed the faith and the virtue needed by nature to choose Christ for yourself. Didn't you?

Maybe you're a Leatherneckist.
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No one goes to the Son that isn’t drawn by the Father. Do you really believe God believes and repents for you ?
 
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