Abandon Ship!

[Vince Massi]

So far we've seen that the ship was going the wrong way, led by a man who was not completely on God's side. The next point is a major problem with many saints:

The ship was making good progress.

Unfortunately, it was making good progress in the wrong direction. There is a widespread belief that if a person is succeeding in Christian work, God MUST be blessing him.  And if God is blessing him, he MUST be Godly. While this is sometimes true, it is not always the case.

I was taught at HAC that the size of your bus route is a measure of your spirituality. Jim Craw, who preached revivals as a teen-ager and built a bus route into the 200's BEFORE HAC, was expelled for stealing a motorcycle. A few years ago, he was pastoring a mid-size church in California. Later, the world's biggest bus route was actually formed by combining several bus routes and lying that the leader deserved the credit. He was later expelled for gang activity. A few years ago, he was an insurance salesman. Route 70 A, who ran the largest route within the world's largest bus route, is a genial Atheist today.

The fact that the wrong church is doing well does not prove that you should stay with it. Unfortunately, the people on the ship didn't believe that.

 

[Tim]

When and how do you get out of your church?

When God makes it painfully clear. At least that is how it worked for us recently.

 

[Vince Massi]

When and how do you get out of your church?

When God makes it painfully clear. At least that is how it worked for us recently.

I'm sorry that you had a rough time of it, Tim. Have you been able to find a good church yet?

 

[Tim]

When and how do you get out of your church?

When God makes it painfully clear. At least that is how it worked for us recently.

I'm sorry that you had a rough time of it, Tim. Have you been able to find a good church yet?

We have been visiting a Church just 10 minutes down the road. The pastor and his congregation have been a real encouragement. We stopped attending our old Church about 2 weeks ago. I stood up at the last business meeting and expressed my concern with the interim pastor to be voted on, and the response I received was heart breaking. The one elder finished his comments by praising/comparing the interim to Lester Rolof ... and others just showed their desire for a pastor who would add to the Bible. I am done with that sort of Baptist.

God is Good and I have seen His hand as he brought us to the Church we have been visiting. It was hard to believe (a blessing really) that a more reformed Church was so close to our home. And yet, not a strict Calvinistic Church. The Bible study at this Church has really been a blessing. And the children feel at home already.

 

[Ransom]

The ship was making good progress.

Unfortunately, it was making good progress in the wrong direction.

Quite the opposite, in fact.

Paul, under the guard of the Augustan Cohort, intended to go to Rome, and the Alexandrian ship that the centurion found was, in fact, headed for Italy (Acts 27:7). They were headed in the right direction.

However, they hoped to winter in the harbour of Phoenix on Crete (v. 12), but they got caught in a storm and were blown to Malta where the ship was wrecked (28:1) - nearly 2,000 off-course! With respect to their intent to winter in Phoenix, I think it's safe to say they made very poor progress, for want of moving their ship 40 miles west from Fair Havens.

That said, the storm did bring them closer to their destination, demonstrated the power of the true God to the pagan soldiers and sailors who heard Paul proclaim that all on board ship would survive the storm, reaffirmed that Paul was fulfilling God's will by going to Rome, as an angel assured him that he "must stand before Caesar" (27:24), and gave him an opportunity to proclaim the Gospel on an island that he might otherwise not have visited.

Was Paul going in the wrong direction? Not according to God's plans.

So let's add to the list of things Vince has yet to answer:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Who says Acts 27:1ff instructs us about correct way to leave a church? Nothing in the text suggests it.
[*]Allegory requires an external "key," some shared knowledge, assumptions, etc., for its interpretation. What is the key for your allegory, and how is your reading of this passage justified?
[*]Why do you say Paul was going the "wrong way" when Paul was, in fact, doing exactly what Jesus instructed him to do in a vision?
[*]You accused others of claiming Paul founded the church at Rome. Where has anyone said this?
[*]What makes Julius the centurion a picture of church leadership, instead of Paul, a literal church leader? Again, you need to show your work and justify your interpretation.
[*]Why should we believe Paul was going in the "wrong direction" when everything in the text says that Paul, by his own intent and by God's design, was definitely on his way to Rome?
[/list]

 

[Vince Massi]

Tim, I hope that things work out well for you and your family.

Nancy and I were serving faithfully in a Baptist church here in Mexico. The pastor resigned, and the new pastor was a Calvinist and ardent soul-winner. We were both admirers of Charles Spurgeon, went soul-winning together, and things went well. He resigned on good terms to become a full-time evangelist and was successful.

A small group then seized the church, ran off over half the congregation, and fought anyone who tried to get them out of power. We now serve faithfully in a soul-winning Assemblies of God church (we're both IFBs) and things have worked out well for us. Last night we had 17 kids over for computers, and things went well.

 

[Vince Massi]

Afer successfully sailing in the wrong direction with the wrong leader, the ship ran into a heavy storm.

Acts 27:17b  ", they struck sail and so were driven.
18 And because we were exceedingly tempest-tossed, the next day they lightened the ship.
19 On the third day we threw the ship's tackle overboard with our own hands."

EVERYONE had lost control of the ship. The captain, the sailors, the centurion, the soldiers, the passengers, and the prisoners had all lost control. If anyone onboard was competent, he still couldn't regain control. Then, having lost control, they took control of their loss of control by throwing their ability to regain control overboard.

A situation this bad is the result of poor leadership. The leadership might not be evil, and it might not even be incompetent, but it is unable to deal with the situation. Time to abandon ship? It was too late to do so without being harmed.

 

[sword]

I see leaving a church as a 4 step process.

1. Determine that it is Gods will that you leave.

a. Understand if God wants you to change churches, he will make it clear it is his will to do so.
b. Understand you must make this decision a matter of significant prayer.
c. Do not minimize the importance of the decision to stay or leave.
d. Understand changing churches will affect your children more than it will affect you.
e. Be sure it is major doctrinal issues and not personal issues that are driving the change.

2. Offer to continue in your current ministries until a replacement is found.

a. Staff transitions can be very traumatic for the young people in that ministry.
b. Do not burn bridges when you leave, God may well direct you back in the future.
c. Leave quietly and try not to hurt others spiritually in the process.
d. Continue to love those who God allowed you to serve with even after you leave.

3. Do not neglect church attendance during the transition.

a. If God does not direct you to a specific church, be faithful in church attendance while searching.
b. Understand if you get out of the habit of church attendance it can be hard to start back.
c. Understand neglecting church attendance may affect your family more than it does you.

4. Do not rush to join another church, do your homework.

a. Be sure you agree with the new church and pastor on major doctrinal issues.
b. Be sure there is or will be areas for your family to serve God and others in the new church.
c. Make the decision to join another church a matter of significant prayer.
d. Do not make a decision to move to an area that does not have a good church unless you plan to start one.

 

[Ransom]

EVERYONE had lost control of the ship. The captain, the sailors, the centurion, the soldiers, the passengers, and the prisoners had all lost control.

Wrong again, Vince. Time to add yet another unanswered question.

[list type=decimal]
[*]Who says Acts 27:1ff instructs us about correct way to leave a church? Nothing in the text suggests it.
[*]Allegory requires an external "key," some shared knowledge, assumptions, etc., for its interpretation. What is the key for your allegory, and how is your reading of this passage justified?
[*]Why do you say Paul was going the "wrong way" when Paul was, in fact, doing exactly what Jesus instructed him to do in a vision?
[*]You accused others of claiming Paul founded the church at Rome. Where has anyone said this?
[*]What makes Julius the centurion a picture of church leadership, instead of Paul, a literal church leader? Again, you need to show your work and justify your interpretation.
[*]Why should we believe Paul was going in the "wrong direction" when everything in the text says that Paul, by his own intent and by God's design, was definitely on his way to Rome?
[*]Why do you falsely say "EVERYONE had lost control of the ship," when it is crystal clear from the context of the story that God had the situation fully under control and was guiding the ship by his own hand to ensure that Paul reached Rome safely?
[/list]

 

[Ransom]

I see leaving a church as a 4 step process.

You forgot:

5. Allegorize the crap out of some irrelevant passage of the Bible, aggressively ignoring all the major problems with your opinion.

 

[Tim]

Tim, I hope that things work out well for you and your family.

Nancy and I were serving faithfully in a Baptist church here in Mexico. The pastor resigned, and the new pastor was a Calvinist and ardent soul-winner. We were both admirers of Charles Spurgeon, went soul-winning together, and things went well. He resigned on good terms to become a full-time evangelist and was successful.

A small group then seized the church, ran off over half the congregation, and fought anyone who tried to get them out of power. We now serve faithfully in a soul-winning Assemblies of God church (we're both IFBs) and things have worked out well for us. Last night we had 17 kids over for computers, and things went well.

Not sure I could stomach an Assemblies of God Church. But, I suppose if that is the best you have for a local Church you can serve God there. Quite a few have left the Church after the pastor left. I even got a request from our old pastor to join him and become a trustee of his new Church. I told him I didn't feel that being God's call on my life right now. And that is true.

I think God's place for us right now is visiting this local Baptist Church 10 minutes down the road. Thankfully much of what they believe/teach I can agree with. They are growing, have many young-middle-older people, and seem to get along well as a group of believers. But, I am not rushing membership. And from what I can tell the pastor won't make that an issue.

 

[Vince Massi]

Tim, I've learned over the decades that churches vary, even within their own groups. Our AOG church is a soul-winning church without a lot of the tongues nonsense. Learning the proper use of spiritual gifts, on the other hand, has been a major gain for both of us.

Nancy and I both hope that things work out well for you and your family in your new church.

 

[Ransom]

Learning the proper use of spiritual gifts, on the other hand, has been a major gain for both of us.

Learning to exegete the Scriptures rightly, and answer questions, remain skills yet to be acquired.

 

[Vince Massi]

I see leaving a church as a 4 step process.

1. Determine that it is Gods will that you leave.

a. Understand if God wants you to change churches, he will make it clear it is his will to do so.
b. Understand you must make this decision a matter of significant prayer.
c. Do not minimize the importance of the decision to stay or leave.
d. Understand changing churches will affect your children more than it will affect you.
e. Be sure it is major doctrinal issues and not personal issues that are driving the change.

2. Offer to continue in your current ministries until a replacement is found.

a. Staff transitions can be very traumatic for the young people in that ministry.
b. Do not burn bridges when you leave, God may well direct you back in the future.
c. Leave quietly and try not to hurt others spiritually in the process.
d. Continue to love those who God allowed you to serve with even after you leave.

3. Do not neglect church attendance during the transition.

a. If God does not direct you to a specific church, be faithful in church attendance while searching.
b. Understand if you get out of the habit of church attendance it can be hard to start back.
c. Understand neglecting church attendance may affect your family more than it does you.

4. Do not rush to join another church, do your homework.

a. Be sure you agree with the new church and pastor on major doctrinal issues.
b. Be sure there is or will be areas for your family to serve God and others in the new church.
c. Make the decision to join another church a matter of significant prayer.
d. Do not make a decision to move to an area that does not have a good church unless you plan to start one.

I?d like to point out three valuable points (among others) that Sword makes:

b. Do not burn bridges when you leave, God may well direct you back in the future.
c. Leave quietly and try not to hurt others spiritually in the process.
d. Continue to love those who God allowed you to serve with even after you leave.

There is no Scriptural justification for leaving with a fight, but there are Scriptures commanding us to live at peace with one another. Fighting your way out leaves you with a bad testimony, makes other churches afraid of you, and gives wrong-doers the opportunity to blame you for the problems they caused.

 

[Vince Massi]

Having made good progress in the wrong direction under poor leadership, the ship was now caught in a storm that it couldn't get out of.

GOD WON'T ABANDON YOU

Acts 27: 24  'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must be brought before Caesar; and indeed God has granted you all those who sail with you.'
25 Therefore take heart, men, for I believe God that it will be just as it was told me.

Years ago, I moderated a small forum for victims of church abuse. We had several readers who were afraid that they would lose their salvation if they left their bad church. A smaller number didn't believe that, but they were frightened by threats of the wrath of God if they left an abusive church.

Over the years, I have repeatedly seen teachers of false doctrine issue threats on Christians who abandon those false doctrines for a better church. I myself used to believe that God would punish me for leaving a bad IFB church for a good Southern Baptist church.

Nonsense! "There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." Let them shout their threats at their empty pews. God didn't reject Paul for abandoning a failed ship, and He won't reject you, either.

 

[Ransom]

[list type=decimal]
[*]Who says Acts 27:1ff instructs us about correct way to leave a church? Nothing in the text suggests it.
[*]Allegory requires an external "key," some shared knowledge, assumptions, etc., for its interpretation. What is the key for your allegory, and how is your reading of this passage justified?
[*]Why do you say Paul was going the "wrong way" when Paul was, in fact, doing exactly what Jesus instructed him to do in a vision?
[*]You accused others of claiming Paul founded the church at Rome. Where has anyone said this?
[*]What makes Julius the centurion a picture of church leadership, instead of Paul, a literal church leader? Again, you need to show your work and justify your interpretation.
[*]Why should we believe Paul was going in the "wrong direction" when everything in the text says that Paul, by his own intent and by God's design, was definitely on his way to Rome?
[*]Why do you falsely say "EVERYONE had lost control of the ship," when it is crystal clear from the context of the story that God had the situation fully under control and was guiding the ship by his own hand to ensure that Paul reached Rome safely?
[/list]

 

[FSSL]

The reason many have abandoned the "ship," is due to the kinds of abuse of Scripture illustrated here.

 

[prophet]

When and how do you get out of your church?

"When God tells you to," someone replies, but he can quote no Scripture to back that statement.

Although I'll be using the story of Paul's shipwreck from the Book of Acts as GUIDELINES, all comments, warnings, suggestions, etc., that will help readera are appreciated.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

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[prophet]

Remember that this literally true story ILLUSTRATES the proper method of abandoning a church.

Who says?

This literally true story is literally about Paul being taken in custody to Rome. As the rest of Acts shows, he was not abandoning a church in any way, shape, or form.

In order for you to allegorize this passage, it is necessary for you to first justify your allegory. You have not done so, so your post is merely an empty assertion without warrant.

1+1=2

Making up an allegory proves nothing.

Any hard questions on this pop quiz?

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[prophet]

Now we know why Vince loves his Ass. O.G. church...they make up every allegory they teach.

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