Abandon Ship!

Vince Massi said:
I would be more concern about the subject of "eternal security" unless you already believe a truly saved person can forfeit their faith.
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My wife and I both believe that we're kept by the power of God. My pastor gave up when I asked him if he would lose his salvation before next Sunday. When he replied that he wouldn't, I replied that neither would anyone else.
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We are truly blessed to live in an area with a wide selection of Churches. I don't know what I would do if in a situation where no Church with similar beliefs existed - I'd probably be challenged to start a Bible study and seek God's will.

The Church we have been attending just did a three part series that complements Mark Dever's, "9 Marks of a Healthy Church" ... not sure if you ever explored the book, and there even is a website you can explore at https://9marks.org/

One of the marks is, "Biblical Theology" and I would fear any Church that preaches/teaches error and can't defend what they believe.

You will probably find yourself leaving another Church based on what you share. Unless your pastor is willing to stand up and correct his error.
 
Ransom said:
That, or it's pure Hyles-ism through and through. Choose a random passage of Scripture, then squeeze it to conform to whatever personal opinon you want to pretend has divine authority.
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Probably most of us grew up with this kind of teaching.

Sadly, this is all too common in "gospel-preaching" churches today. Very few churches, on our travels, required us to use our Bibles. The preachers' stories and allegorical interpretations reveal a deep ignorance and laziness to explore the Scriptures in their context and look for applications that are actually derived from the passages.
 
Vince Massi said:
They didn't know where they were, they failed to bring the ship to the beach,
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They didn't "fail." This was a large cargo ship; it probably had a draft too deep to allow it to actually float to shore. If they hadn't struck a reef, they probably would have run aground on a sand bar.

and now the ship was breaking up under their leadership.
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No, it was breaking up because of the storm, which was beyond their control.

When leadership fails, it's time to get out.
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The only persons showing leadership were Paul and the centurion. Paul encouraged a terrified crew to eat and persuaded them that they need not fear for their lives. Julius took charge and prevented the sailors from abandoning ship prematurely. As a result, the ship was safely run aground and no lives were lost.

That is not a leadership failure. That is a leadership success.

Time to add to our Frequently Unanswered Questions.

[list type=decimal]
[*]Who says Acts 27:1ff instructs us about correct way to leave a church? Nothing in the text suggests it.
[*]Allegory requires an external "key," some shared knowledge, assumptions, etc., for its interpretation. What is the key for your allegory, and how is your reading of this passage justified?
[*]Why do you say Paul was going the "wrong way" when Paul was, in fact, doing exactly what Jesus instructed him to do in a vision?
[*]You accused others of claiming Paul founded the church at Rome. Where has anyone said this?
[*]What makes Julius the centurion a picture of church leadership, instead of Paul, a literal church leader? Again, you need to show your work and justify your interpretation.
[*]Why should we believe Paul was going in the "wrong direction" when everything in the text says that Paul, by his own intent and by God's design, was definitely on his way to Rome?
[*]Why do you falsely say "EVERYONE had lost control of the ship," when it is crystal clear from the context of the story that God had the situation fully under control and was guiding the ship by his own hand to ensure that Paul reached Rome safely?
[*]Why do you claim the sailors were the ones who knew what was going on, when it is crystal clear from the narrative that only Paul had a clear understanding of what was going to happen?
[*]Why do you claim that the shipwreck was a judgment, or the result of sin, when the text says no such thing, and in fact implies that it was part of God's good plan to get Paul to Rome to testify there?
[*]Why do you claim that leadership "failed" when it is clear that Paul and Julius' leadership successfully saved all lives aboard the ship?
[/list]
 
Vince Massi said:
SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO CHANGE LEADERSHIP
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As I said in my previous post, the only people showing "leadership" were Paul and Julius, and between the two of them, they saved all souls on board.

There was no failure. The "leaders" were doing exactly the right thing in their circumstances.
 
Tim writes: "We are truly blessed to live in an area with a wide selection of Churches. I don't know what I would do if in a situation where no Church with similar beliefs existed - I'd probably be challenged to start a Bible study and seek God's will."

Tim, I was surprised to learn that going to a church that I do not completely agree with doesn't have to be a disaster. Part of the reason is that there are some doctrines that are not denied by a previous church, but are ignored. Learning what the Bible teaches about spiritual gifts has opened a lot of opportunities for service to my wife and me.

The pastor of our former Baptist church was an ardent soul-winner, good teacher and preacher, and a good friend. I disagreed strongly with his Calvinism, but we worked together well.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that you must attend a church that you completely agree with, and if it did, most Christians would be attending a church with some error.
 
FSSL said:
Ransom said:
That, or it's pure Hyles-ism through and through. Choose a random passage of Scripture, then squeeze it to conform to whatever personal opinon you want to pretend has divine authority.
Click to expand...
Probably most of us grew up with this kind of teaching.

Sadly, this is all too common in "gospel-preaching" churches today. Very few churches, on our travels, required us to use our Bibles. The preachers' stories and allegorical interpretations reveal a deep ignorance and laziness to explore the Scriptures in their context and look for applications that are actually derived from the passages.
Click to expand...

I agree, but there are some good churches where the pastor studies.
 
Okay, Gang, time to close it out.

YOU ARE ALLOWED TO CARRY GOOD THINGS FROM THE SHIP YOU'VE ABANDONED.

The non-swimmers ripped timber loose and floated to shore safely. And while the ship had lost its cargo, tackling, and lifeboat, there were probably things that could be salvaged after the storm ended. The fact that you have to leave a church doesn't prove that the church is all-evil; you are still allowed to benefit from what you learned.

There is no record that the survivors hated the captain and the sailors. I got reconciled with Jim Vineyard, left him on good terms, and received a good recommendation from him. Last week, God gave us 31 kids in children's church, and much of it was due to the good training that Jim gave me.

You don't have to be enemies with brethren that you part ways with. Leave quietly, keep what's good, and serve God.
 
Vince, now that you're done talking, perhaps you have time to answer some questions.

[list type=decimal]
[*]Who says Acts 27:1ff instructs us about correct way to leave a church? Nothing in the text suggests it.
[*]Allegory requires an external "key," some shared knowledge, assumptions, etc., for its interpretation. What is the key for your allegory, and how is your reading of this passage justified?
[*]Why do you say Paul was going the "wrong way" when Paul was, in fact, doing exactly what Jesus instructed him to do in a vision?
[*]You accused others of claiming Paul founded the church at Rome. Where has anyone said this?
[*]What makes Julius the centurion a picture of church leadership, instead of Paul, a literal church leader? Again, you need to show your work and justify your interpretation.
[*]Why should we believe Paul was going in the "wrong direction" when everything in the text says that Paul, by his own intent and by God's design, was definitely on his way to Rome?
[*]Why do you falsely say "EVERYONE had lost control of the ship," when it is crystal clear from the context of the story that God had the situation fully under control and was guiding the ship by his own hand to ensure that Paul reached Rome safely?
[*]Why do you claim the sailors were the ones who knew what was going on, when it is crystal clear from the narrative that only Paul had a clear understanding of what was going to happen?
[*]Why do you claim that the shipwreck was a judgment, or the result of sin, when the text says no such thing, and in fact implies that it was part of God's good plan to get Paul to Rome to testify there?
[*]Why do you claim that leadership "failed" when it is clear that Paul and Julius' leadership successfully saved all lives aboard the ship?
[/list]
 
Vince Massi said:
Tim writes: "We are truly blessed to live in an area with a wide selection of Churches. I don't know what I would do if in a situation where no Church with similar beliefs existed - I'd probably be challenged to start a Bible study and seek God's will."

Tim, I was surprised to learn that going to a church that I do not completely agree with doesn't have to be a disaster. Part of the reason is that there are some doctrines that are not denied by a previous church, but are ignored. Learning what the Bible teaches about spiritual gifts has opened a lot of opportunities for service to my wife and me.

The pastor of our former Baptist church was an ardent soul-winner, good teacher and preacher, and a good friend. I disagreed strongly with his Calvinism, but we worked together well.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that you must attend a church that you completely agree with, and if it did, most Christians would be attending a church with some error.
Click to expand...

I will respond by using some information from https://9marks.org below and also share that as a parent of 6 impressionable Children I believe it is highly important that those who share my faith on a  weekly bases find common doctrinal agreement. I agree not every Church will be perfect. And I agree it is my job to teach truth to my children. But as you will read below it is important to have solid, sound, Biblical theology to evangelize, disciple and have true unity. How can one do this if we have a variety of doctrinal flavors in one Church?

A Church with solid Biblical theology is essential for:

Evangelism. The gospel is doctrine. Therefore, sound doctrine is necessary for evangelism.

Discipleship. Jesus prayed, ?Sanctify them in the truth. Your word is truth? (Jn. 17:17). Christians grow by learning and living in light of the truth?in other words, by sound doctrine.

Unity. According to the New Testament, the only true unity is unity in the truth (1 Jn. 1:1-4; 2 Jn. 10-11).

Worship. To worship God is to declare his excellencies (1 Pet. 2:9-10) and to exalt him because of who he is (Ps. 29:2). True worship is a response to sound doctrine.
 
Tim, I have to admit that you make a valid point by pointing out that children might be involved. My wife and I are retired, and our son is grown.
 
Since Vince has finished monologuing and abandoned this thread, I'm going to take the last word. Let the record show that he is too cowardly to answer challenges to his monologue.

[list type=decimal]
[*]Who says Acts 27:1ff instructs us about correct way to leave a church? Nothing in the text suggests it.
[*]Allegory requires an external "key," some shared knowledge, assumptions, etc., for its interpretation. What is the key for your allegory, and how is your reading of this passage justified?
[*]Why do you say Paul was going the "wrong way" when Paul was, in fact, doing exactly what Jesus instructed him to do in a vision?
[*]You accused others of claiming Paul founded the church at Rome. Where has anyone said this?
[*]What makes Julius the centurion a picture of church leadership, instead of Paul, a literal church leader? Again, you need to show your work and justify your interpretation.
[*]Why should we believe Paul was going in the "wrong direction" when everything in the text says that Paul, by his own intent and by God's design, was definitely on his way to Rome?
[*]Why do you falsely say "EVERYONE had lost control of the ship," when it is crystal clear from the context of the story that God had the situation fully under control and was guiding the ship by his own hand to ensure that Paul reached Rome safely?
[*]Why do you claim the sailors were the ones who knew what was going on, when it is crystal clear from the narrative that only Paul had a clear understanding of what was going to happen?
[*]Why do you claim that the shipwreck was a judgment, or the result of sin, when the text says no such thing, and in fact implies that it was part of God's good plan to get Paul to Rome to testify there?
[*]Why do you claim that leadership "failed" when it is clear that Paul and Julius' leadership successfully saved all lives aboard the ship?
[/list]
 
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