Abandon Ship!

[Ransom]

Now we know why Vince loves his Ass. O.G. church...they make up every allegory they teach.

That, or it's pure Hyles-ism through and through. Choose a random passage of Scripture, then squeeze it to conform to whatever personal opinon you want to pretend has divine authority.

 

[prophet]

Now we know why Vince loves his Ass. O.G. church...they make up every allegory they teach.

That, or it's pure Hyles-ism through and through. Choose a random passage of Scripture, then squeeze it to conform to whatever personal opinon you want to pretend has divine authority.

Oops, you said "or" when you meant "and"...

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[Walt]

Man, three jokes, but no hatred. Good Heavens, we might actually have an intelligent discussion here.

Remember that this literally true story ILLUSTRATES the proper method of abandoning a church, but it is not a list of doctrines.

1) You're going the wrong way.  Acts 27:1  "And when it was decided that we should sail to Italy, they delivered Paul and some other prisoners to one named Julius, a centurion of the Augustan Regiment." The nation of Italy did not yet exist; they were sailing to the Italian peninsula, where Rome was located. They were sailing away from Jerusalem, the city of the Great King, and heading towards the city God calls "The great whore."

I don't believe that this passage illustrates this - you are using it to illustrate your thoughts, and one might be able to draw some parallels... but I think we should be very, very careful about saying that the Scripture illustrates something that God does not tell us it illustrates.

To answer the OP, which I assume is asking about when one abandons a church, it is a very broad topic; it would need to be divided into some areas.

1) When the pastor is committed an egregious sin - such as embezzling the offerings, or committing adultery, or molesting a child. In my opinion, this is NOT the time to leave a church.  This is the time to stand up for righteousness and denounce the pastor (I am assuming that there is proof, not just an assumption). I admit that I don't know that I would have the courage to do this step myself, but I do believe it is the right thing to do.  If the church will not remove the pastor, THEN you should leave that church and find another church to attend.

2) Clearly, if one must leave an area, it is that person's job to leave the old church and to join a new church.

The above two are the relatively easy categories. It gets harder with the next ones

3) The church is moving in a direction you think is wrong. This depends upon a lot of other factors -- what the change is; how strongly you feel about it; is there another church nearby.  It is your church, too; you can use your voice to state what you believe.  We must always remember that we *could* be wrong.  Sincere Christians have disagreed about various Bible teachings for years. If the change is serious enough, and your concerns are not addressed, then I would leave quietly and find another church in which to glorify God. If there is not another church, the options are to stay and pray for change, or to move to where there is a like-minded church.

4) The pastor is preaching wrong doctrine; again, you can go to him and ask about it.  This is like the above.  Doctrine is important, but I have never met two Bible students who agree on everything -- the point being that there is some teaching over which we don't need to separate; there are some doctrines that are foundational and one would have to leave.  Again, if working from within won't solve the issue, then leave quietly (after all, you could be the one in the wrong), and join a church where you CAN bring glory to God.


I'm sure there are probably other cases,  but these sprang to mind.  Let me know what you think.

 

[Vince Massi]

Walt, I appreciate the courtesy of your post. But when I taught about people threatening  the wrath of God for leaving their church, I hit a raw nerve that I hadn't known existed. So, on we go!

The most common threat for leaving is that you are leaving good doctrine for wrong doctrine. The problem with this common belief is that almost everyone who believes it is wrong. Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Campellites,  as well as Christians, often hold to this doctrine, and most of them are wrong. Therefore, the doctrine (which is not found in Scripture) is a bad doctrine.

But someone argues "I am an exception, because my church really does have true doctrine!" But almost everyone who believes that is wrong, and the doctrine is still not taught in Scripture.

No, Brethren, God won't abandon you for leaving a bad church. Let them shout their threats to their empty pews.

 

[Ransom]

But when I taught about people threatening  the wrath of God for leaving their church, I hit a raw nerve that I hadn't known existed.

This raw nerve was apparently  not hit on this forum, since only you have mentioned the threat of the wrath of God. Who, exactly, are you monologuing at this time, since it obviously is not FFFers?

Walt, I appreciate the courtesy of your post.

You, on the other hand, lack the courtesy to interact with the questions people have about your post.

[list type=decimal]
[*]Who says Acts 27:1ff instructs us about correct way to leave a church? Nothing in the text suggests it.
[*]Allegory requires an external "key," some shared knowledge, assumptions, etc., for its interpretation. What is the key for your allegory, and how is your reading of this passage justified?
[*]Why do you say Paul was going the "wrong way" when Paul was, in fact, doing exactly what Jesus instructed him to do in a vision?
[*]You accused others of claiming Paul founded the church at Rome. Where has anyone said this?
[*]What makes Julius the centurion a picture of church leadership, instead of Paul, a literal church leader? Again, you need to show your work and justify your interpretation.
[*]Why should we believe Paul was going in the "wrong direction" when everything in the text says that Paul, by his own intent and by God's design, was definitely on his way to Rome?
[*]Why do you falsely say "EVERYONE had lost control of the ship," when it is crystal clear from the context of the story that God had the situation fully under control and was guiding the ship by his own hand to ensure that Paul reached Rome safely?
[/list]

 

[Walt]

Walt, I appreciate the courtesy of your post. But when I taught about people threatening  the wrath of God for leaving their church, I hit a raw nerve that I hadn't known existed. So, on we go!

I don't get this anywhere in the thread, but I have seen people threatened with God's curse if they leave the dictator "Man of God".

The most common threat for leaving is that you are leaving good doctrine for wrong doctrine. The problem with this common belief is that almost everyone who believes it is wrong. Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Campellites,  as well as Christians, often hold to this doctrine, and most of them are wrong. Therefore, the doctrine (which is not found in Scripture) is a bad doctrine.

But someone argues "I am an exception, because my church really does have true doctrine!" But almost everyone who believes that is wrong, and the doctrine is still not taught in Scripture.

No, Brethren, God won't abandon you for leaving a bad church. Let them shout their threats to their empty pews.

If I followed this, you agree that God doesn't punish people for leaving churches over doctrine.  Otherwise, I'm afraid I did not follow what you said.

 

[Vince Massi]

[/quote]

If I followed this, you agree that God doesn't punish people for leaving churches over doctrine.  Otherwise, I'm afraid I did not follow what you said.
[/quote]

God will deal with someone who leaves a church for the wrong reason: don't want to live for God, don't want to forsake sin, etc. But we err when we make doctrine the sole criteria for staying in  a bad  church.

 

[Vince Massi]

Folks, when I moderated a small forum for victims of church abuse, I thought  that the wrath of God for leaving a church was an empty threat mostly used by Arminians. It seems that the problem is more widespread than I realized.

For argument's sake, let's say that FBCH was perfect in doctrine when HAC opened in 1972. But they over-emphasized soul-winning, while ignoring spiritual gifts. Deceit was a major, integral part of their system. Later, their leaders would corrupt themselves by authorizing and protecting the Dave Hyles and Jim Vineyard scandals. They rejected holiness in favor of man-made rules.

Would it be wrong to leave? Would it be wrong to stay? Either way, God won't abandon you for your decision.

 

[Walt]

Folks, when I moderated a small forum for victims of church abuse, I thought  that the wrath of God for leaving a church was an empty threat mostly used by Arminians. It seems that the problem is more widespread than I realized.

For argument's sake, let's say that FBCH was perfect in doctrine when HAC opened in 1972. But they over-emphasized soul-winning, while ignoring spiritual gifts. Deceit was a major, integral part of their system. Later, their leaders would corrupt themselves by authorizing and protecting the Dave Hyles and Jim Vineyard scandals. They rejected holiness in favor of man-made rules.

Would it be wrong to leave? Would it be wrong to stay? Either way, God won't abandon you for your decision.

True; we have His promise to NEVER leave us or forsake us.

However, FBCH and like churches often threatened us that God would "put you on the shelf" and "never use you again" if you left them.

Then there was the infamous "If you criticize this church or it's leadership, God will smite you."

 

[FSSL]

"Do not lay your hand against His anointed."

 

[Vince Massi]

Acts 27: 30 And as the sailors were seeking to escape from the ship, when they had let down the skiff into the sea, under pretense of putting out anchors from the prow,
31 Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, "Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved."

Folks, I consider this by far to be the most important point of this thread: When the people who know what's going on are quietly sneaking off, you have a problem.

We can argue later about whether you should leave with a fight or leave quietly, but most Godly Christians leave quietly. When you suddenly realize that tithers are quietly going elsewhere, there's a problem. When faithful attenders start visiting around, there's a problem. When people who rarely criticize or cause problems quietly disappear, there's a problem.

When Jerry Falwell quietly began putting Southern Baptists on his church and college staff, IFBs should have realized that there was a problem. And when he took his church into the Convention, that should have been a massive warning--Falwell knew what was going on, better than his critics did,  and he got out.

Remember that this literally true story only ILLUSTRATES when to abandon ship. It's not a list of commands, but it does provide guidelines for us to consider.

 

[FSSL]

Which is the tension, should an illustration, provide any guidelines, especially when the illustration is a non sequitor?


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[Ransom]

Folks, I consider this by far to be the most important point of this thread: When the people who know what's going on are quietly sneaking off, you have a problem.

You mean Paul, right? Because it's clear he was the only one with a right understanding of the actual situation.

[list type=decimal]
[*]Who says Acts 27:1ff instructs us about correct way to leave a church? Nothing in the text suggests it.
[*]Allegory requires an external "key," some shared knowledge, assumptions, etc., for its interpretation. What is the key for your allegory, and how is your reading of this passage justified?
[*]Why do you say Paul was going the "wrong way" when Paul was, in fact, doing exactly what Jesus instructed him to do in a vision?
[*]You accused others of claiming Paul founded the church at Rome. Where has anyone said this?
[*]What makes Julius the centurion a picture of church leadership, instead of Paul, a literal church leader? Again, you need to show your work and justify your interpretation.
[*]Why should we believe Paul was going in the "wrong direction" when everything in the text says that Paul, by his own intent and by God's design, was definitely on his way to Rome?
[*]Why do you falsely say "EVERYONE had lost control of the ship," when it is crystal clear from the context of the story that God had the situation fully under control and was guiding the ship by his own hand to ensure that Paul reached Rome safely?
[*]Why do you claim the sailors were the ones who knew what was going on, when it is crystal clear from the narrative that only Paul had a clear understanding of what was going to happen?
[/list]

 

[Vince Massi]

Even fasting and prayer won't save the ship.

And as day was about to dawn, Paul implored them all to take food, saying, "Today is the fourteenth day you have waited and continued without food, and eaten nothing.



You can reach a point in sin that God will not turn back His judgment. David's sin with Bathsheba produced consequences so severe that God would not respond to David's fasting and repentance. Posters have argued on the FFF that HAC should not attempt to undo its wrongs, because admitting them would provide evidence for lawsuits. A church that has been ruined by corrupt leadership might be unrestorable until the wrongs of the leadership have been reversed, and sometimes they can't be reversed. Lost at sea, without enough food and equipment, the ship could not sail back to Jerusalem and undo the harm it had done.

When sin has run a church into the ground, it's time to abandon ship.

 

[Tim]

Tim, I've learned over the decades that churches vary, even within their own groups. Our AOG church is a soul-winning church without a lot of the tongues nonsense. Learning the proper use of spiritual gifts, on the other hand, has been a major gain for both of us.

Nancy and I both hope that things work out well for you and your family in your new church.

I would be more concern about the subject of "eternal security" unless you already believe a truly saved person can forfeit their faith.

 

[Ransom]

Even fasting and prayer won't save the ship.

Who says they were fasting? All the text says is that they hadn't eaten. Maybe, since they were lost at sea, they were rationing.

You can reach a point in sin that God will not turn back His judgment.

Again, no reason from the text to conclude that Paul was sinning.

Lost at sea, without enough food and equipment, the ship could not sail back to Jerusalem and undo the harm it had done.

What harm did the ship do in Jerusalem, and why would they try to get back? They were trying to deliver goods and passengers to Rome.

When sin has run a church into the ground, it's time to abandon ship.

The ship wasn't run aground due to sin or some sort of error. It was done purposely, probably to prevent it from sinking to give time to evacuate.

No one was lost. The shipwreck wasn't judgment. It was a blessing.

[list type=decimal]
[*]Who says Acts 27:1ff instructs us about correct way to leave a church? Nothing in the text suggests it.
[*]Allegory requires an external "key," some shared knowledge, assumptions, etc., for its interpretation. What is the key for your allegory, and how is your reading of this passage justified?
[*]Why do you say Paul was going the "wrong way" when Paul was, in fact, doing exactly what Jesus instructed him to do in a vision?
[*]You accused others of claiming Paul founded the church at Rome. Where has anyone said this?
[*]What makes Julius the centurion a picture of church leadership, instead of Paul, a literal church leader? Again, you need to show your work and justify your interpretation.
[*]Why should we believe Paul was going in the "wrong direction" when everything in the text says that Paul, by his own intent and by God's design, was definitely on his way to Rome?
[*]Why do you falsely say "EVERYONE had lost control of the ship," when it is crystal clear from the context of the story that God had the situation fully under control and was guiding the ship by his own hand to ensure that Paul reached Rome safely?
[*]Why do you claim the sailors were the ones who knew what was going on, when it is crystal clear from the narrative that only Paul had a clear understanding of what was going to happen?
[*]Why do you claim that the shipwreck was a judgment, or the result of sin, when the text says no such thing, and in fact implies that it was part of God's good plan to get Paul to Rome to testify there?
[/list]

 

[Vince Massi]

[/quote]

I would be more concern about the subject of "eternal security" unless you already believe a truly saved person can forfeit their faith.
[/quote]

My wife and I both believe that we're kept by the power of God. My pastor gave up when I asked him if he would lose his salvation before next Sunday. When he replied that he wouldn't, I replied that neither would anyone else.

 

[Vince Massi]

THE LEADERSHIP HAS FAILED

Acts 27:41 But striking a place where two seas met, they ran the ship aground; and the prow stuck fast and remained immovable, but the stern was being broken up by the violence of the waves.

They didn't know where they were, they failed to bring the ship to the beach, and now the ship was breaking up under their leadership. The next verses tell us that Julius the centurion took the lead and got everyone safely to shore.

A speaker at HAC told us how they had founded a church and were averaging over 100 attendance, using rented buildings. A dying Baptist church offered to merge, with him as pastor. The deacon boards, Sunday School teachers, etc., would be combined. He told us that God clearly told him that if he accepted, God would stop blessing them. So he counter-offered: The Baptist church could give them their building and dissolve. Members of the Baptist church could apply for membership if they wanted to, and could advance to leadership positions if they were able to. And although the Baptist church refused, his congregation continued to grow.

Decades later, I studied how "nomad churches," using rented buildings, would grow large congregations. They would often receive the same offer from dying churches. Those who accepted always regretted it.

When leadership fails, it's time to get out.

 

[Vince Massi]

Acts 27:42 And the soldiers' plan was to kill the prisoners, lest any of them should swim away and escape.
43 But the centurion, wanting to save Paul, kept them from their purpose, and commanded that those who could swim should jump overboard first and get to land,
44 and the rest, some on boards and some on parts of the ship. And so it was that they all escaped safely to land.

SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO CHANGE LEADERSHIP

Julius the Centurion MIGHT have realized that there was only so much good timber on a wrecked ship. He  might have ordered the swimmers to jump overboard so they could get to shore, rest, and then wade into the surf to pull the non-swimmers ashore.  But whatever his plan, it worked.

Julius hadn't known what was going on, but he had learned to listen to Paul. He didn't know how to save the ship, but he knew how to get out. He didn't act out of malice; he helped everyone get out. Paul had said that the ship would be lost, the sailors failed to bring it ashore, and Julius realized that he should not accept the leadership of the sailors.

The leaders of the failed ship might not have been bad folks, but it was time to change leaders.

 

[FSSL]

Lol!


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