I was recently in a Facebook "discussion" with a fellow preacher on the sinfulness of alcohol. I agreed that the Bible is very critical of drinking and has multiple warnings of its dangers. I could not agree that there is a clear, universal condemnation of any and all alcohol consumption in scripture. I was polite, thoughtful, and emphasized our areas of agreement. I was shocked to see how dismissive, arrogant, and judgmental his replies were. I am a believer in "the old time religion" and a "King James Bible Believer", but to him, I was a liberal who needed to be humiliated.
This my friends....is why they hate us
The exchange is posted below:
Him: Alcohol is condemned in the Bible. Today many are saying that while the Bible condemns drunkenness, it never condemns the moderate use of alcohol. They say that good Christians can be biblically free to enjoy a glass of wine, or a beer on the weekends. Well, does the Bible condemn beverage alcohol? Of course it does. It condemns it both directly and indirectly.
Me: I wish it was that easy. A full prohibition of any and all alcohol consumption would truly help us preachers who know the evil effects of booze. Unfortunately, their is no clear universal condemnation of alcohol consumption in the Bible. Deut. 14:26 even refers to strong drink as a blessing from God. Obviously Jesus drank wine with some alcohol content because the Pharisees called him a glutton and drunkard for "eating and drinking." I certainly caution my people to abstain from all "adult beverages", but I can't categorically state is always a sin and still be true to scripture. It is stupid...and very dangerous to drink, but it might not always be sinful.
Him: Uninformed on every count.
Deut 14:26 does NOT refer to alcohol.
So if someone falsely accuses you that means they're right? Say what?
I can.
It's a sin.
And I'm true to Scripture.
So before you come off with points that you haven't studied through thoroughly, get in the Book.
Me: Strong drink in Deut 14:26 doesn't refer to alcohol? They called Jesus a drunkard for drinking grape juice? The disciples didn't drink fermented wine at the wedding feast? (I do believe the wine Jesus made was fresh and not soured because it tasted the best) Once again, we both want our people to stay far from alcohol, but I won't preach what I don't believe the Bible says. (We can discuss later the insulting way you said I don't know the Bible because of our differences in interpretation.)
Him: I chuckle when people make the points you made.
It's like people who say that baptism saves because of a verse they don't understand or haven't studied yet.
It's not a difference in interpretation.
It's a difference in studying.
I'm sorry that your lack of knowledge insults you. That's not my intent.
Truth is.
Me: I am wiling to admit my error if you can prove from the Bible that what I say is incorrect
Him: What exactly would you like me to prove wrong? Be specific. I'm not interested in going round and round.
Me: What is "strong drink" in Deut 14:26? Was alcoholic wine served at the wedding feast?
Him: Just those 2?
I'd be happy to.
Christians who favor drinking seem to ignore plain Scriptures that speak directly against alcohol (Proverbs 20:1; 23:29-35; 1 Thessalonians 5:6-8; etc.), while glorying in Deuteronomy 14:26, an obscure verse that only mentions wine and strong drink in passing.
It may seem strange that God would forbid His Old Testament priests to drink while engaging in worship, yet tell the people they were welcome to drink during worship without regard to age or amount. It sounds strange because it is a contradiction, and because it never happened.
The word in Deuteronomy 14:26 translated "strong drink" or even "beer" by some translations, is the Hebrew word "shekar."
Many authorities theorize that shekar always means an alcoholic drink. But significant authorities disagree. They believe shekar, like the biblical words for wine, could refer either to an alcoholic, or a nonalcoholic drink, but made from fruit other than grapes.
"It is tolerably clear that the general words ?wine [yayin; oinos]? and ?strong drink [shekar]? do not necessarily imply fermented liquors, the former signifying only a production of the vine, the latter the produce of other fruits than the grape.? -Dr. Lyman Abbott, A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge,
Shekar - ?Sweet drink (what satiates or intoxicates).? -Dr. Robert Young, Young?s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, Eerdmans, 1970.
?Not only the word yayin, but also shekar can refer to grape juice as well as to wine (cf. Deuteronomy 29:6; Numbers 28:7; Exodus 29:40).? -Dr. Robert P. Teachout in his doctoral dissertation on The Use of Wine in the Old Testament, 1979, Dallas Theological Seminary.
It is also interesting that we get our English words sugar, saccharine, cider from the Hebrew word shekar. These words allude to a root meaning of sweet, rather than alcoholic. Also, cider can mean alcoholic, or nonalcoholic apple juice, just like the original word shekar.
Finally, in that day they could more easily make and preserve nonalcoholic wine and shekar, than the alcoholic kind. Nonalcoholic drinks were common in their day, just as they are in ours.
Me: My final reply (do feel free to rebut....this is your thread, I'm just hijacking it smile emoticon
) You claim the clear reading of several Bible verses must mean something different that what they say (strong drink could be non-alcoholic juice????). As I said earlier, I do not favor drinking. I abstain and I tell my congregation all the reasons why I think they should as well. The Bible says drinking is dangerous, can be easily abused, and can do lasting damage to the drinker. Still, it is very very likely that alcohol consumption was basic part of OT and NT life. They didn't always have pure drinking water and fruit juice begins to ferment immediately after it is pressed. We can always debate how much alcohol content was in the wine (or strong drink), but I am confident it had some percentage. I don't see where they distilled wine to make it more alcoholic as we do today. It was just part of their diet. Of course, we have plenty of safe options today, so alcohol consumption is basically obsolete, though still not always sinful. Our congregations should be spiritual enough to avoid alcohol because of the multiple warnings and the protection of their own testimonies. I just can't preach what I don't believe, no matter if I get the result I want. God bless, I enjoyed the discussion. Remember, where the Bible is clear - Unity. Where the Bible is unclear - Liberty. But in all things, Charity.
Him: Basically, everything you just posted about alcohol is inaccurate.
That's my point. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
As a pastor, I am responsible to preach the whole counsel of God.
Everything I preach, I try to be as well versed as I possibly can.
I'm not into cliches and cool sayings when it comes to truth. I'm into truth.
I taught you about Deut 14:26 after you asked and admitted you'd be open to correction. You choose to simply dismiss it. That's sad.
If you want to be uneducated on the topic, thats completely your prerogative.
However don't come on here posting things that aren't true and expect me not to respond and reprove it.
Another Poster: Are you aware even in biblical times they were interestingly several ways to preserve grape/fruit juice to keep it from fermenting? So talking about "percentage" is erroneous. You remind me of my recent former pastor who uses Ecclesiates 10:19 and Psalm 104:15 as his excuse to imbibe. The bottom line is he drinks beverage alcohol is THIS IS WHAT HE AND HIS WIFE INTENDS TO DO ALL ALONG and seeking to assuage his conscience over it.
Me: I am certainly not looking for reasons to drink. I have always preached against liquor. For years I tried to find every way to make the Bible say it is always wrong, but I just can't come to that conclusion. It is dangerous, it is obsolete, it is unnecessary, it is abusive, it is annoying....but I still can't find a universal condemnation of all alcohol consumption in scripture and I can't preach what I don't believe the Bible says. My motive is not to promote drinking, it is to rightfully divide the word of truth. We may come to different conclusions on the sinfulness of alcohol, but we both agree the Bible paints a very negative picture and Christians should abstain for testimonies sake if for no other reason.
This my friends....is why they hate us
The exchange is posted below:
Him: Alcohol is condemned in the Bible. Today many are saying that while the Bible condemns drunkenness, it never condemns the moderate use of alcohol. They say that good Christians can be biblically free to enjoy a glass of wine, or a beer on the weekends. Well, does the Bible condemn beverage alcohol? Of course it does. It condemns it both directly and indirectly.
Me: I wish it was that easy. A full prohibition of any and all alcohol consumption would truly help us preachers who know the evil effects of booze. Unfortunately, their is no clear universal condemnation of alcohol consumption in the Bible. Deut. 14:26 even refers to strong drink as a blessing from God. Obviously Jesus drank wine with some alcohol content because the Pharisees called him a glutton and drunkard for "eating and drinking." I certainly caution my people to abstain from all "adult beverages", but I can't categorically state is always a sin and still be true to scripture. It is stupid...and very dangerous to drink, but it might not always be sinful.
Him: Uninformed on every count.
Deut 14:26 does NOT refer to alcohol.
So if someone falsely accuses you that means they're right? Say what?
I can.
It's a sin.
And I'm true to Scripture.
So before you come off with points that you haven't studied through thoroughly, get in the Book.
Me: Strong drink in Deut 14:26 doesn't refer to alcohol? They called Jesus a drunkard for drinking grape juice? The disciples didn't drink fermented wine at the wedding feast? (I do believe the wine Jesus made was fresh and not soured because it tasted the best) Once again, we both want our people to stay far from alcohol, but I won't preach what I don't believe the Bible says. (We can discuss later the insulting way you said I don't know the Bible because of our differences in interpretation.)
Him: I chuckle when people make the points you made.
It's like people who say that baptism saves because of a verse they don't understand or haven't studied yet.
It's not a difference in interpretation.
It's a difference in studying.
I'm sorry that your lack of knowledge insults you. That's not my intent.
Truth is.
Me: I am wiling to admit my error if you can prove from the Bible that what I say is incorrect
Him: What exactly would you like me to prove wrong? Be specific. I'm not interested in going round and round.
Me: What is "strong drink" in Deut 14:26? Was alcoholic wine served at the wedding feast?
Him: Just those 2?
I'd be happy to.
Christians who favor drinking seem to ignore plain Scriptures that speak directly against alcohol (Proverbs 20:1; 23:29-35; 1 Thessalonians 5:6-8; etc.), while glorying in Deuteronomy 14:26, an obscure verse that only mentions wine and strong drink in passing.
It may seem strange that God would forbid His Old Testament priests to drink while engaging in worship, yet tell the people they were welcome to drink during worship without regard to age or amount. It sounds strange because it is a contradiction, and because it never happened.
The word in Deuteronomy 14:26 translated "strong drink" or even "beer" by some translations, is the Hebrew word "shekar."
Many authorities theorize that shekar always means an alcoholic drink. But significant authorities disagree. They believe shekar, like the biblical words for wine, could refer either to an alcoholic, or a nonalcoholic drink, but made from fruit other than grapes.
"It is tolerably clear that the general words ?wine [yayin; oinos]? and ?strong drink [shekar]? do not necessarily imply fermented liquors, the former signifying only a production of the vine, the latter the produce of other fruits than the grape.? -Dr. Lyman Abbott, A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge,
Shekar - ?Sweet drink (what satiates or intoxicates).? -Dr. Robert Young, Young?s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, Eerdmans, 1970.
?Not only the word yayin, but also shekar can refer to grape juice as well as to wine (cf. Deuteronomy 29:6; Numbers 28:7; Exodus 29:40).? -Dr. Robert P. Teachout in his doctoral dissertation on The Use of Wine in the Old Testament, 1979, Dallas Theological Seminary.
It is also interesting that we get our English words sugar, saccharine, cider from the Hebrew word shekar. These words allude to a root meaning of sweet, rather than alcoholic. Also, cider can mean alcoholic, or nonalcoholic apple juice, just like the original word shekar.
Finally, in that day they could more easily make and preserve nonalcoholic wine and shekar, than the alcoholic kind. Nonalcoholic drinks were common in their day, just as they are in ours.
Me: My final reply (do feel free to rebut....this is your thread, I'm just hijacking it smile emoticon
) You claim the clear reading of several Bible verses must mean something different that what they say (strong drink could be non-alcoholic juice????). As I said earlier, I do not favor drinking. I abstain and I tell my congregation all the reasons why I think they should as well. The Bible says drinking is dangerous, can be easily abused, and can do lasting damage to the drinker. Still, it is very very likely that alcohol consumption was basic part of OT and NT life. They didn't always have pure drinking water and fruit juice begins to ferment immediately after it is pressed. We can always debate how much alcohol content was in the wine (or strong drink), but I am confident it had some percentage. I don't see where they distilled wine to make it more alcoholic as we do today. It was just part of their diet. Of course, we have plenty of safe options today, so alcohol consumption is basically obsolete, though still not always sinful. Our congregations should be spiritual enough to avoid alcohol because of the multiple warnings and the protection of their own testimonies. I just can't preach what I don't believe, no matter if I get the result I want. God bless, I enjoyed the discussion. Remember, where the Bible is clear - Unity. Where the Bible is unclear - Liberty. But in all things, Charity.Him: Basically, everything you just posted about alcohol is inaccurate.
That's my point. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
As a pastor, I am responsible to preach the whole counsel of God.
Everything I preach, I try to be as well versed as I possibly can.
I'm not into cliches and cool sayings when it comes to truth. I'm into truth.
I taught you about Deut 14:26 after you asked and admitted you'd be open to correction. You choose to simply dismiss it. That's sad.
If you want to be uneducated on the topic, thats completely your prerogative.
However don't come on here posting things that aren't true and expect me not to respond and reprove it.
Another Poster: Are you aware even in biblical times they were interestingly several ways to preserve grape/fruit juice to keep it from fermenting? So talking about "percentage" is erroneous. You remind me of my recent former pastor who uses Ecclesiates 10:19 and Psalm 104:15 as his excuse to imbibe. The bottom line is he drinks beverage alcohol is THIS IS WHAT HE AND HIS WIFE INTENDS TO DO ALL ALONG and seeking to assuage his conscience over it.
Me: I am certainly not looking for reasons to drink. I have always preached against liquor. For years I tried to find every way to make the Bible say it is always wrong, but I just can't come to that conclusion. It is dangerous, it is obsolete, it is unnecessary, it is abusive, it is annoying....but I still can't find a universal condemnation of all alcohol consumption in scripture and I can't preach what I don't believe the Bible says. My motive is not to promote drinking, it is to rightfully divide the word of truth. We may come to different conclusions on the sinfulness of alcohol, but we both agree the Bible paints a very negative picture and Christians should abstain for testimonies sake if for no other reason.
