Coming out as an Agnostic

[ALAYMAN]

So can you enlighten us on this?

"I've been a fundamentalist my entire life. I even met my wife in a Christian college."

I see how my sloppy writing in that post was ambiguous now, but Ransom is right.  I was just trying to show similarities between Joe's situation and my brother's, and they ain't the same person.  I don't have a clue who Joseph007 is.

 

[prophet]

Like Ransom and others said, why don't you give him one of your answers rather than sniping at the fundys?

Not one of you has had to "break the news" to their believing spouse that they doubt the existence of God. ...so you have no experience in the matter.  And neither do I, so I can't give him an honest answer.    "Jesus is THE answer" is not an answer.  It's Christianese and doesn't mean anything to someone who has recently come to the conclusion that Jesus is not THE answer.

I'm just trying to point him in the right direction.  He won't find any answers here.

You know this, how?

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[Walt]

I've been a fundamentalist my entire life. I even met my wife in a Christian college. But I am now agnostic. I need advice on the best way to talk to my wife about it. How do I tell her that I no longer believe the Bible is "the word of God"?  She is still a believer. Looking for people that have been in this situation before and how they handled it. Or a spouse that was on the receiving end of this kind of revelation.

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Kind of curious about what you consider to be "agnostic" - Do you believe anything anymore?  You may believe many tenets of Christianity, even if doubt some parts of the Bible.

 

[FreeToBeMe]

You know this, how?

Know what exactly? That none of you fundies have have to break this kind of news to your spouses, or that "Jesus is THE answer" is not the answer to his question?

 

[Walt]

You know this, how?

Know what exactly? That none of you fundies have have to break this kind of news to your spouses, or that "Jesus is THE answer" is not the answer to his question?

Many people have had to have a discussion with spouses about changing beliefs - I know that I have.  I'm trying to figure out exactly what the change from before to now is and what you believed that you no longer believed.

"Jesus is THE answer" is just a cutesy saying -- not necessarily a serious answer to real issues one has.

Anyone who thinks that "Jesus is THE answer" has not turned in an essay test with "Jesus" for every answer... (hint: it doesn't give you a passing grade)

 

[prophet]

You know this, how?

Know what exactly? That none of you fundies have have to break this kind of news to your spouses, or that "Jesus is THE answer" is not the answer to his question?

That no one else on this forum has ever had to break the news of a change in beliefs to a spouse.

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[Anchor]

Scripture makes it plain that before a person will come to God he must first "believe that he is...[Heb. 11:6]". It is not the job of Scripture to convince of that.  That job has been left to creation and conscience (Rom 1&2). Creation communicates all the attributes necessary to convince of God's "eternal power and Godhead..."; conscience (law: there is right and wrong) verifies an ultimate law-giver. These communicate God so precisely as to be assessed under inspiration as being "clearly seen [Rom. 1:20]" so that we can scripturally and categorically state that one who denies the evidence of God's existence is "... willingly... ignorant...[II Peter 3:5] "

It behooves us, then, to recognize that the convincing work for the existence of God, followed by the conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment and the revelation of Jesus Christ as the only means of salvation falls on the only One capable of doing the job--God, the Holy Spirit. 

It is gut-check time! Do we actually trust the Holy Spirit in or on the life of another using the tools that have been ordained (Scripture, the church, gifted individuals, witnesses of the resurrection of Christ [which all believers are], prayer, etc.) to accomplish what only He can do?  It is a great fear of mine that the increased education and intellectualism of our present society has distracted us from trusting the Holy Spirit in matters such as these, substituting His ability with discussion, debate, reasoning, and "show-me-the-love" efforts that are completely incapable of overcoming willful ignorance and convincing anyone of the most basic step of faith--[i]"believe that he is..."[/i]

Prayer is the best weapon.  For those in our sphere of influence that are struggling with believing in the existence of God it should be our first response, and, possibly, our only response.

 

[FreeToBeMe]

It is not the job of Scripture to convince of that.  That job has been left to creation and conscience (Rom 1&2).

I can get on board with that....but then you had to throw in scripture as if to somehow prove it. 

Basically, you're saying "It's not scripture's job to convince you that there is a Creator, but here's some scripture to prove that it's not scripture's job".  ???

 

[ALAYMAN]

It is not the job of Scripture to convince of that.  That job has been left to creation and conscience (Rom 1&2).

I can get on board with that....but then you had to throw in scripture as if to somehow prove it. 

Basically, you're saying "It's not scripture's job to convince you that there is a Creator, but here's some scripture to prove that it's not scripture's job".  ???

He's a fundamentalist, on a forum filled with fundamentalists, reminding them what their Manual says on the subject.  Makes sense to me that he would point people of the Christian faith to the principles behind their faith.  He trusts and has confidence in the God of the Bible to do His work more than the age of reason and philosophy.  No big news there.  Besides that, Joseph isn't looking to respond about his agnosticism, so Anchor is speaking to those who are listening and responding.

 

[Saved by Grace]

Jesus is not always the answer to your test question but to the unbelieving and fearful, confused, guilty or ashamed, or agnostic ( have i left anyone out )

Jesus will always be the answer.....its not a cutesy answer. Its the only answer that will you what you nee.

Being an agnostic is nothing to be proud of but it's nothing Christ cant fix

 

[Anchor]

He's a fundamentalist, on a forum filled with fundamentalists, reminding them what their Manual says on the subject.  Makes sense to me that he would point people of the Christian faith to the principles behind their faith.  He trusts and has confidence in the God of the Bible to do His work more than the age of reason and philosophy.  No big news there.  Besides that, Joseph isn't looking to respond about his agnosticism, so Anchor is speaking to those who are listening and responding.

What he said! 

 

[prophet]

It is not the job of Scripture to convince of that.  That job has been left to creation and conscience (Rom 1&2).

I can get on board with that....but then you had to throw in scripture as if to somehow prove it. 

Basically, you're saying "It's not scripture's job to convince you that there is a Creator, but here's some scripture to prove that it's not scripture's job".  ???

To show that even Scripture points back to Nature, as the revelation of it's Creator, is to amplify "Nature", not "Scripture".
You got this exactly wrong.

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[Anchor]

...To show that even Scripture points back to Nature, as the revelation of it's Creator, is to amplify "Nature", not "Scripture".
You got this exactly wrong.

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So, what does exactly right look like?

 

[biscuit1953]

I'm evangelical, not agnostic. If you find yourself to be agnostic now and your wife is a Christian, keep your beliefs private to the extent that you can. This would be for the sake of your wife and for your honesty. If agnostic, then the God of Christianity could exist and be true to His Word. Your wife might be right. You don't know.

I guess my issue is that every religion is based on believing in that religion's mandates for eternal life. There isn't any actual proof that any one religion is correct. How does any one know that they are right? Every one that is religious believes whole  heartedly that they are correct and their belief system will get them to heaven. How do you know who is right? You just believe......

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Isaiah 41:20-23
20 so that all may see and know, consider and understand, that the hand of the LORD has done this, the Holy One of Israel has created it.  21 ?Submit your case,? says the LORD.  Present your arguments,? says Jacob?s King.  22 ?Let them come and tell us what will happen.  Tell us the past events, so that we may reflect on them and know the outcome, or tell us the future. 23 Tell us the coming events,? then we will know that you are gods.  Indeed, do something good or bad, then we will be in awe when we see it. 

Christianity isn?t based on a blind faith.  The Bible is the only book in human history that repeatedly gives detailed prophecies that have been fulfilled literally and continues to be fulfilled literally centuries in advance. Only a true God knows what happened at the beginning and can tell what is to come.  The Koran, Nostradamus, Buddhism, nor any other religion has the element of prophecy in them. 

Throughout the Book of Hebrews, the writer is showing the Jews that there is a better covenant (Heb 8:6) and those who reject it and go back to Judaism are not saved.  Hebrews 10:1-4 declares that the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins and Hebrews 10:26,27 states that If we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice.  27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:29 states that those who have ?trodden under foot the Son of God? by rejecting His sacrifice (Heb 10:1-4) and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, has done despite (profaned) the Spirit of grace.  Rejecting Christ insults the Spirit who worked through Him (Matthew 12:31,32).

Hebrews 10:39 implies that there were some Hebrews who drew back to perdition (destruction) by rejecting the sacrifice of Christ but others ?believed to the saving of the soul.?  Very simply, it is your choice to accept or reject the revelation God has graciously allowed you to receive.

Not believing God is equivalent to calling Him a Liar (1 John 5:10).

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to
please him: for he that comes to God
must believe that he is, and that he is a
rewarder of them that diligently seek
him.

Try establishing any sort of friendship without faith. Walk up to a woman and introduce yourself. When she tells you her name, say, ?I don?t believe you.? Watch her reaction.
When she tells you where she works, say that you don?t believe that either. Carry on like that for a while, and before long you may be nursing a black eye. Your lack of faith in her is a strong insinuation that she is a liar.

If she, a mere mortal, feels insulted by your lack of faith in her word, how much more do unbelievers insult Almighty God by refusing to believe His Word. In doing so, they are saying that God isn?t worth trusting?that He is a liar and a deceiver.  (The Evidence Bible)

 

[prophet]

...To show that even Scripture points back to Nature, as the revelation of it's Creator, is to amplify "Nature", not "Scripture".
You got this exactly wrong.

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So, what does exactly right look like?

The Scripture says specifically that man is without an excuse, because nature reveals The Creator.

This absolutely is the ball being put back in nature's court. 

You tried to turn it around to say that the Scripture was claiming to be proof of itself, which doesn't work, and was explained by Jesus.

Man doesn't need Scripture to tell him there is a Creator.

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[Joseph007]

I'm evangelical, not agnostic. If you find yourself to be agnostic now and your wife is a Christian, keep your beliefs private to the extent that you can. This would be for the sake of your wife and for your honesty. If agnostic, then the God of Christianity could exist and be true to His Word. Your wife might be right. You don't know.

I guess my issue is that every religion is based on believing in that religion's mandates for eternal life. There isn't any actual proof that any one religion is correct. How does any one know that they are right? Every one that is religious believes whole  heartedly that they are correct and their belief system will get them to heaven. How do you know who is right? You just believe......

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Isaiah 41:20-23
20 so that all may see and know, consider and understand, that the hand of the LORD has done this, the Holy One of Israel has created it.  21 ?Submit your case,? says the LORD.  Present your arguments,? says Jacob?s King.  22 ?Let them come and tell us what will happen.  Tell us the past events, so that we may reflect on them and know the outcome, or tell us the future. 23 Tell us the coming events,? then we will know that you are gods.  Indeed, do something good or bad, then we will be in awe when we see it. 

Christianity isn?t based on a blind faith.  The Bible is the only book in human history that repeatedly gives detailed prophecies that have been fulfilled literally and continues to be fulfilled literally centuries in advance. Only a true God knows what happened at the beginning and can tell what is to come.  The Koran, Nostradamus, Buddhism, nor any other religion has the element of prophecy in them. 

Throughout the Book of Hebrews, the writer is showing the Jews that there is a better covenant (Heb 8:6) and those who reject it and go back to Judaism are not saved.  Hebrews 10:1-4 declares that the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins and Hebrews 10:26,27 states that If we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice.  27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:29 states that those who have ?trodden under foot the Son of God? by rejecting His sacrifice (Heb 10:1-4) and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, has done despite (profaned) the Spirit of grace.  Rejecting Christ insults the Spirit who worked through Him (Matthew 12:31,32).

Hebrews 10:39 implies that there were some Hebrews who drew back to perdition (destruction) by rejecting the sacrifice of Christ but others ?believed to the saving of the soul.?  Very simply, it is your choice to accept or reject the revelation God has graciously allowed you to receive.

Not believing God is equivalent to calling Him a Liar (1 John 5:10).

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to
please him: for he that comes to God
must believe that he is, and that he is a
rewarder of them that diligently seek
him.

Try establishing any sort of friendship without faith. Walk up to a woman and introduce yourself. When she tells you her name, say, ?I don?t believe you.? Watch her reaction.
When she tells you where she works, say that you don?t believe that either. Carry on like that for a while, and before long you may be nursing a black eye. Your lack of faith in her is a strong insinuation that she is a liar.

If she, a mere mortal, feels insulted by your lack of faith in her word, how much more do unbelievers insult Almighty God by refusing to believe His Word. In doing so, they are saying that God isn?t worth trusting?that He is a liar and a deceiver.  (The Evidence Bible)

Which prophecies have come true? What prophecies are mentioned in the Bible, were fulfilled and are verifiable outside of the Bible?

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[biscuit1953]

I'm getting ready to leave and won't be back for awhile but will try to reply when I get the time.  I'm sure others can give examples and you could a do a search on your own.

 

[Twisted]

Which prophecies have come true? What prophecies are mentioned in the Bible, were fulfilled and are verifiable outside of the Bible?

Really?  That's it?

Assuming you are sincere, then this little book will be a good starting point.

http://sciencespeaks.dstoner.net/

Bottom line:  The odds of OT prophecies being fulfilled in one man are so high, you would be insane not to believe them.

 

[Joseph007]

Which prophecies have come true? What prophecies are mentioned in the Bible, were fulfilled and are verifiable outside of the Bible?

Really?  That's it?

Assuming you are sincere, then this little book will be a good starting point.

http://sciencespeaks.dstoner.net/

Bottom line:  The odds of OT prophecies being fulfilled in one man are so high, you would be insane not to believe them.

I read that article and so far have only researched the prophecy about Tyre. I have a few thoughts and findings. One thought I had is that many cities and nations, no matter how well fortified, were eventually overthrown throughout history. In one century a particular nation would be the most powerful and would conquer other nations. The next century that nation would be the one being conquered. To make a prediction that a nation or city would eventually be conquered by another is a pretty sure bet. When I first read about this I was impressed with the acurracy of the prophesy. Tyre was eventually conquered by Alexander the Great and was destroyed as prophesied. There is one thing that was prophesied that did not come true, the city would never be rebuilt. It was rebuilt many years ago and is inhabited today. You can see it clearly with a simple Google Map search. The other predictions could have been made by anyone. It would be defeated... see above comment. It would be made flat... if it was defeated there's a chance it's conquerors would flatten it. It would be used for fishing.... It's a coastal city so of course it would be used for fishing.  Most coastal cities are.
Any way, that's my research on Tyre. I welcome any challenges.
I will look into the others as I have time. I work a lot which is why I'm slow to respond.

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[Twisted]

Which prophecies have come true? What prophecies are mentioned in the Bible, were fulfilled and are verifiable outside of the Bible?

Really?  That's it?

Assuming you are sincere, then this little book will be a good starting point.

http://sciencespeaks.dstoner.net/

Bottom line:  The odds of OT prophecies being fulfilled in one man are so high, you would be insane not to believe them.

I read that article and so far have only researched the prophecy about Tyre. I have a few thoughts and findings. One thought I had is that many cities and nations, no matter how well fortified, were eventually overthrown throughout history. In one century a particular nation would be the most powerful and would conquer other nations. The next century that nation would be the one being conquered. To make a prediction that a nation or city would eventually be conquered by another is a pretty sure bet. When I first read about this I was impressed with the acurracy of the prophesy. Tyre was eventually conquered by Alexander the Great and was destroyed as prophesied. There is one thing that was prophesied that did not come true, the city would never be rebuilt. It was rebuilt many years ago and is inhabited today. You can see it clearly with a simple Google Map search. The other predictions could have been made by anyone. It would be defeated... see above comment. It would be made flat... if it was defeated there's a chance it's conquerors would flatten it. It would be used for fishing.... It's a coastal city so of course it would be used for fishing.  Most coastal cities are.
Any way, that's my research on Tyre. I welcome any challenges.
I will look into the others as I have time. I work a lot which is why I'm slow to respond.

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This should help you.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/12/07/Ezekiel-261-14-A-Proof-Text-For-Inerrancy-or-Fallibility-of-The-Old-Testament.aspx#Article