Drinking

[rsc2a]

One could also ignore the fact that the early church sincerely believed they were living in the "last days" (as they were and we are).

One could but why would one?

I have no idea why one would. Perhaps it would be better to ask someone who is ignoring that fact, say Alayman?

 

[Bob H]

One could also ignore the fact that the early church sincerely believed they were living in the "last days" (as they were and we are).

One could but why would one?

I have no idea why one would. Perhaps it would be better to ask someone who is ignoring that fact, say Alayman?

According to Joel the last/latter days started at Pentecost. I didn't see where Al said otherwise nor did he imply such.

 

[rsc2a]

One could also ignore the fact that the early church sincerely believed they were living in the "last days" (as they were and we are).

One could but why would one?

I have no idea why one would. Perhaps it would be better to ask someone who is ignoring that fact, say Alayman?

According to Joel the last/latter days started at Pentecost. I didn't see where Al said otherwise nor did he imply such.

...If your conclusions about Timothy are accurate based on verse 3 then you must also conclude he was caught up in lying, myths, demonic  teaching and apostasy since those traits are also mentioned as a continuous thought starting in verse one.  Of course none of those things are attributable to Timothy, as verse 1 clearly spells out these things will characterize people in the "later times" (the close of the world)... - Alayman

i.e. "...these things will characterize people in not in Timothy's time"

 

[FSSL]

Why assume that Timothy was given over entirely to false teachings?

I didn't. I told you "I don't buy it". If one claims v. 3 applies to Timothy about his drinking wine then one would have to conclude V's 1 & 2 applies to him also

Right. That was a poorly written question and I saw that and edited it but not soon enough.

A person can be influenced by false teaching without adopting all of the teachings. That is why I used the illustration Bible Colleges. Others on this forum have quipped that they were all taught that there was only verses against wine, only to find out that was false.

There was something that prompted Timothy to exclusively drink only water.

In a earlier post {I think on the second page} I posted 4 translations which said the same thing. Which begs the question I asked "since Timothy apparently didn't drink and had to be told to drink the alcohol for medical purposes, why didn't he drink to begin with? I Tim 4:3 doesn't answer that question......And BTW, I have close to 800 commentaries and you can do better that Fee 

...which is why I did not just give one quote. Fee is typically solid and other commentaries say the same thing. I could have added Bible Knowledge Commentary (Duane Liftin) to the list. Surely, having 800 commentaries, you would have seen this understanding.

No one knows exactly why Timothy would become a "water-only" person. Therefore, it is the job of the commentator, and our responsibility, to lay out all of the possibilities and not become dogmatic on any and not reject the possibility of 4:3.

 

[Bob H]

One could also ignore the fact that the early church sincerely believed they were living in the "last days" (as they were and we are).

One could but why would one?

I have no idea why one would. Perhaps it would be better to ask someone who is ignoring that fact, say Alayman?

According to Joel the last/latter days started at Pentecost. I didn't see where Al said otherwise nor did he imply such.

...If your conclusions about Timothy are accurate based on verse 3 then you must also conclude he was caught up in lying, myths, demonic  teaching and apostasy since those traits are also mentioned as a continuous thought starting in verse one.  Of course none of those things are attributable to Timothy, as verse 1 clearly spells out these things will characterize people in the "later times" (the close of the world)... - Alayman

i.e. "...these things will characterize people in not in Timothy's time"

The close of the world starts at Pentecost. That's the way I took it. That was his point, that V's 1 & 2 would have to apply also. Anyways I believe you added that last i.e. in your post on what Al posted. He didn't say that.

 

[Bob H]

There was something that prompted Timothy to exclusively drink only water.

Ya, his mommy & grandma from his youth up

No one knows exactly why Timothy would become a "water-only" person. .

That's why I asked  ......... And "would become"? One would have to conclude he always was unless otherwise stated.

Therefore, it is the job of the commentator, and our responsibility, to lay out all of the possibilities and not become dogmatic on any and not reject the possibility of 4:3.

I guess we have difference of opinion on how to interpret a passage. I have over 11 commentaries on I Tim not counting all my full commentary sets and haven't found any yet that support I Tim 4:3 to Timothy and wine drinking.

 

[.tim]

 

[rsc2a]

One could also ignore the fact that the early church sincerely believed they were living in the "last days" (as they were and we are).

One could but why would one?

I have no idea why one would. Perhaps it would be better to ask someone who is ignoring that fact, say Alayman?

According to Joel the last/latter days started at Pentecost. I didn't see where Al said otherwise nor did he imply such.

...If your conclusions about Timothy are accurate based on verse 3 then you must also conclude he was caught up in lying, myths, demonic  teaching and apostasy since those traits are also mentioned as a continuous thought starting in verse one.  Of course none of those things are attributable to Timothy, as verse 1 clearly spells out these things will characterize people in the "later times" (the close of the world)... - Alayman

i.e. "...these things will characterize people in not in Timothy's time"

The close of the world starts at Pentecost. That's the way I took it. That was his point, that V's 1 & 2 would have to apply also. Anyways I believe you added that last i.e. in your post on what Al posted. He didn't say that.

None of those things are attributable to Timothy...these things will characterize people in the 'later times'. - Alayman

He explicitly separated the two.

 

[subllibrm]

None of those things are attributable to Timothy...these things will characterize people in the 'later times'. - Alayman

He explicitly separated the two.

I predict a charge of obtuseness to follow shortly! 

 

[rsc2a]

None of those things are attributable to Timothy...these things will characterize people in the 'later times'. - Alayman

He explicitly separated the two.

I predict a charge of obtuseness to follow shortly! 

How dare I consider what he actually said!

 

[FSSL]

None of those things are attributable to Timothy...these things will characterize people in the 'later times'. - Alayman

He explicitly separated the two.

I predict a charge of obtuseness to follow shortly! 

How dare I consider what he actually said!

Yes. Unless he wrote a very poor post... it was the same thought.

 

[Bob H]

The close of the world starts at Pentecost. That's the way I took it. That was his point, that V's 1 & 2 would have to apply also. Anyways I believe you added that last i.e. in your post on what Al posted. He didn't say that.

None of those things are attributable to Timothy...these things will characterize people in the 'later times'. - Alayman

He explicitly separated the two.

our fearless leader separated them. FSSL attributed V. 3 to Timothy about his "lack of wine drinking" but v's 1 & 2 he didn't attribute that behavior to Timothy. Paul was writing to warn Timothy and not to accuse him of that behavior or "attribute said behavior to him". In other words... " None of those things are attributable to Timothy ...these things will characterize people in the later times, which started at Pentecost in which no one said otherwise including Al.

 

[FSSL]

Nah... you are getting confused.

Alayman STRONGLY APPEARS to say that the false teachers are only "latter day" teachers, not contemporary with Timothy.

I said that Timothy may have been influenced by SOME of their teachings regarding abstinence from wine. That does not demand, or even imply, that Timothy would have been influenced by ALL their teachings.

 

[Bob H]

Alayman STRONGLY APPEARS to say that the false teachers are only "latter day" teachers, not contemporary with Timothy.

We'll just have to disagree there.

Nah... you are getting confused.

I will agree that SOMEBODY is confused.

 

[FSSL]

So... Bob... did you find any commentary that suggests Timothy was taught abstinence from wine by his Mother and Grandmother? I haven't found that yet. That has piqued my interest.

Alayman STRONGLY APPEARS to say that the false teachers are only "latter day" teachers, not contemporary with Timothy.

We'll just have to disagree there.

Perhaps Alayman can come back and make a correction or clarification.

 

[Bob H]

You have a large collection of commentaries and do not own NAC or BKC?

I do have the BKC and haven't seen anything about attributing drinking wine to Timothy's medical condition and why he didn't. As far as the NAC goes, I have 6 vols I  but not I & II Tim.... But to quote your post:

Lea & Griffin in the excellent NAC says, "One of the problems of the false teachers involved the practice of asceticism concerning foods (4:3). ""PERHAPS"" Timothy had been influenced by this practice, and Paul now advised him about it. Paul gave fatherly directives to Timothy in urging him to take some wine to help his digestion. Lea, T. D., & Griffin, H. P. (1992). Vol. 34: 1, 2 Timothy, Titus. The New American Commentary (158). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

And PERHAPS not....... Talk about speculating 

 

[Bob H]

Perhaps Alayman can come back and make a correction or clarification.

I may be wrong. It's happened at least 2 or 3 times in my life 

 

[FSSL]

And PERHAPS not....... Talk about speculating 

Are you not avoiding something? Again, for a third time, "Do you have ANY commentary that says Timothy was taught abstinence by his Mother and Grandmother?"

I already said that these are possibilities. Remember Alayman charging me with pulling this out of my arse? He left the discussion when I showed him the sources with no retraction.

So... why am I the only one supporting my rationale with multiple commentaries? Did you both jump in too critically?

 

[FSSL]

I do have the BKC and haven't seen anything about attributing drinking wine to Timothy's medical condition and why he didn't.

Did you even read my initial question or BKC?

The question is: "Do any of your commentaries mention the possibility that Timothy was influenced into abstinence by the false teachers, mentioned in 4:3?" Bible Knowledge Commentary DOES mention this.

"Perhaps Timothy was inclined to an asceticism which associated purity with total abstention (cf. 4:3–5), which in turn led in Timothy’s case to stomach ailments and frequent illnesses, perhaps due to the poor quality of the water he drank." Litfin, A. D. (1985). 1 Timothy. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck, Ed.) (1 Ti 5:23). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

 

[Bob H]

And PERHAPS not....... Talk about speculating 

Are you not avoiding something? Again, for a third time, "Do you have ANY commentary that says Timothy was taught abstinence by his Mother and Grandmother?"

No one knows why Timothy didn't drink. That's why I asked the stupid question to begin with. I'm sorry I did    My comment was that I Tim 5:23 is not a good verse to prove whether drinking is good or bad. He was told to drink it for medical purposes. I know many non-Christians who don't drink and it has nuttin to do with abstinence. They just don't drink. I'd go with his upbringing, but that was just me. I'm also allowed to speculate like Lea & Griffin {not to confuse with our esteemed Dr Bob} did. 


..BTW,  is interpreting & possibilities a contradiction of terms. Just asking. They just seem not to go together.