Is there a mass flight away from the IFB movement?

[fishinnut]

Yeah, I've noticed the shift away from traditional worship.  I grew up a non-Christian,  listening to all the Ozzy, Sabbath, Boston, Aerosmith, and whatever other bangin' music that appealed to my flesh.  As a result, I can't stand Christian Rock.  First, I think it is an oxymoron, and second it reminds me too much of a life that I don't want to return to.  I think it is often irreverent, lacking in substance, and intent on appealing to the emotions first and intellect second, which is the opposite of what any form of Christian teaching should do.

And while I'm at it, I think that the consumerist mindset of today shows itself in how people choose churches.  The contemporary movement, by and large, doesn't require service.  It coddles Christians, and doesn't draw fine enough distinctions between worldly behavior and licentious or borderline living.  It is a "Come as your are, and leave as you came" philosophy.

Oh the quotes that abound about opinions.......

Romans 14:1-5, with special emphasis on 5b: "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

 

[HereIStand]

I could see an IFB style of service -- traditional hymns and only using the KJV for worship -- having some appeal over some contemporary-style services. I enjoy a variety of music styles (especially blues guitar) outside of church, but prefer hymns or classical music in church. Also enjoy referencing different Bible versions online and in print home, but like the idea of one version (KJV or another) being used in the worship service.

 

[groupie]

I truly hope that you never felt that way around me.  [/quote]

You never were rude, unkind or unloving. We talked often, but we were not in the same ministry, SS class, or maybe even same section in the old auditorium. I am more talking about all the people that called me when they needed something - money, a favor, etc, and then when I left avoided me at Wally world or Schoops. I just can't see that as sincere love. I guess I need to be careful when I make broad statements. I hope I did not hurt you in any way.

 

[prophet]

I truly hope that you never felt that way around me. 

You never were rude, unkind or unloving. We talked often, but we were not in the same ministry, SS class, or maybe even same section in the old auditorium. I am more talking about all the people that called me when they needed something - money, a favor, etc, and then when I left avoided me at Wally world or Schoops. I just can't see that as sincere love. I guess I need to be careful when I make broad statements. I hope I did not hurt you in any way.
[/quote]


It isn't love.  What we were taught, "loyalty", in that perverse sense of it, was wrong.
It is lust.
You please me, so I love you = lust.


Anishinaabe

 

[Izdaari]

I haven't noticed. But I haven't been in it to notice since I was 12, and that was a long time ago.

However, I did flee conservative evangelicalism for a mainline/liberal denomination. It was the 2012 campaign season that convinced me. When I saw how much support there was for Rick Santorum within evangelicalism, I realized how incompatible it and I were.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I honestly never would have imagined that of you.  I never listened to that stuff even when I was a hippie.  I guess that's a compliment. 

I had eclectic musical taste, and still do to an extent, though I still listen to a fairly wide swath of secular music, I've removed the trash that is patently offensive and base.

I like SOME CCM, mainly Twila Paris, Margaret Becker, the Imperials, but I haven't listened to any of it in more than a decades.

I don't slap a blanket label on a genre, though Rap pretty much bites all the way around, and I haven't heard any opera that makes me say "oooh, play that again".

  I hate sappy contemporary "praise and worship" music with a passion.  I'd much rather listen to hymns, even if they're interpreted into a modern instrumentation.  And, IMO, Bach was the greatest composer who ever lived.  I've listened to his Christmas Oratorio so many times I think I have the whole thing memorized. 

But I'm also a big fan of good instrumental jazz, whether it's big band jazz or Steve Morse's blend of bluegrass, jazz, and metal.

I like bluegrass and some jazz as well (not the fusion type so much), and definitely not a fan of metal, or any other form that tends towards musical distortion and/or music that drowns out the lyrics.  That notion of hearing and understanding the lyrics is probably the single most over-riding driving force in my proclivities.  I love a good story, whether on the big screen or in a lyrical form. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Oh the quotes that abound about opinions.......

Romans 14:1-5, with special emphasis on 5b: "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

I agree that every man is to be fully persuaded on all matters of faith and practice, but I do find it ironic that you didn't provide any Scriptural justifications to positively support *your* opinions about music preferences either.

 

[fishinnut]

Oh the quotes that abound about opinions.......

Romans 14:1-5, with special emphasis on 5b: "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

I agree that every man is to be fully persuaded on all matters of faith and practice, but I do find it ironic that you didn't provide any Scriptural justifications to positively support *your* opinions about music preferences either.

Nor did you, just your past personal experience that has made you have flashback over reactions to anything "bangin'" out there.

Here's mine.....Romans 14:1-5, with special emphasis on 5b: "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

 

[Izdaari]

I honestly never would have imagined that of you.  I never listened to that stuff even when I was a hippie.  I guess that's a compliment. 

I had eclectic musical taste, and still do to an extent, though I still listen to a fairly wide swath of secular music, I've removed the trash that is patently offensive and base.

I like SOME CCM, mainly Twila Paris, Margaret Becker, the Imperials, but I haven't listened to any of it in more than a decades.

I don't slap a blanket label on a genre, though Rap pretty much bites all the way around, and I haven't heard any opera that makes me say "oooh, play that again".

  I hate sappy contemporary "praise and worship" music with a passion.  I'd much rather listen to hymns, even if they're interpreted into a modern instrumentation.  And, IMO, Bach was the greatest composer who ever lived.  I've listened to his Christmas Oratorio so many times I think I have the whole thing memorized. 

But I'm also a big fan of good instrumental jazz, whether it's big band jazz or Steve Morse's blend of bluegrass, jazz, and metal.

I like bluegrass and some jazz as well (not the fusion type so much), and definitely not a fan of metal, or any other form that tends towards musical distortion and/or music that drowns out the lyrics.  That notion of hearing and understanding the lyrics is probably the single most over-riding driving force in my proclivities.  I love a good story, whether on the big screen or in a lyrical form.

It's nice to see that we agree on some music. Not all, I do remain fond of that German Industrial Metal Band. And German and Russian opera if not Italian. And Christian rappers Shai Linne and Lecrae.

And... this might surprise you a little... I don't much care for "contemporary" in churches either. My take on traditional is different than yours for sure, Anglican/Lutheran liturgical rather than Baptist, but either way, it's not the currently popular "happy clappy" stuff.

 

[prophet]

I honestly never would have imagined that of you.  I never listened to that stuff even when I was a hippie.  I guess that's a compliment. 

I had eclectic musical taste, and still do to an extent, though I still listen to a fairly wide swath of secular music, I've removed the trash that is patently offensive and base.

I like SOME CCM, mainly Twila Paris, Margaret Becker, the Imperials, but I haven't listened to any of it in more than a decades.

I don't slap a blanket label on a genre, though Rap pretty much bites all the way around, and I haven't heard any opera that makes me say "oooh, play that again".

  I hate sappy contemporary "praise and worship" music with a passion.  I'd much rather listen to hymns, even if they're interpreted into a modern instrumentation.  And, IMO, Bach was the greatest composer who ever lived.  I've listened to his Christmas Oratorio so many times I think I have the whole thing memorized. 

But I'm also a big fan of good instrumental jazz, whether it's big band jazz or Steve Morse's blend of bluegrass, jazz, and metal.

I like bluegrass and some jazz as well (not the fusion type so much), and definitely not a fan of metal, or any other form that tends towards musical distortion and/or music that drowns out the lyrics.  That notion of hearing and understanding the lyrics is probably the single most over-riding driving force in my proclivities.  I love a good story, whether on the big screen or in a lyrical form.

What, no Stryper?

Anishinaabe

 

[Mathew Ward]

Oh the quotes that abound about opinions.......

Romans 14:1-5, with special emphasis on 5b: "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

I agree that every man is to be fully persuaded on all matters of faith and practice, but I do find it ironic that you didn't provide any Scriptural justifications to positively support *your* opinions about music preferences either.

Nor did you, just your past personal experience that has made you have flashback over reactions to anything "bangin'" out there.

Here's mine.....Romans 14:1-5, with special emphasis on 5b: "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

Ephesians 5:19  Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Yeah, I've noticed the shift away from traditional worship.  I grew up a non-Christian,  listening to all the Ozzy, Sabbath, Boston, Aerosmith, and whatever other bangin' music that appealed to my flesh.  As a result, I can't stand Christian Rock.  First, I think it is an oxymoron, and second it reminds me too much of a life that I don't want to return to.  I think it is often irreverent, lacking in substance, and intent on appealing to the emotions first and intellect second, which is the opposite of what any form of Christian teaching should do.

And while I'm at it, I think that the consumerist mindset of today shows itself in how people choose churches.  The contemporary movement, by and large, doesn't require service.  It coddles Christians, and doesn't draw fine enough distinctions between worldly behavior and licentious or borderline living.  It is a "Come as your are, and leave as you came" philosophy.

I think 'Christian Rock' is an over used and under defined 'idiom'.
Bob Jones thought Steve green sang Christian rock back in the day....

As to your second paragraph, I basically agree.

 

[Tim]

One of the blessings of modern Christian music (any style) is the fresh, new, current praise and adoration unto Jesus Christ by new fresh converts! Not that the old is worthless, and I enjoy singing old hymns, but the new songs they write and sing comes from their hearts. Many young people today don't understand the history of music and its relationship to the Church - they just pick up an instrument and sing what they know and can.

Let me share what Matthew Henry wrote about Matthew 9:17 ... "Great caution and prudence are necessary, that young converts may not receive gloomy and forbidding ideas of the service of our Lord; but duties are to be urged as they are able to bear them."

I wonder, should and can young people today bear the weight of removing their modern impression and understanding of music? Should it be taken away and replaced with old, and yes gloomy, ideas?

My guess is Jesus would say these new converts are like new wine! They get new bottles!

 

[Gringo]

I honestly never would have imagined that of you.  I never listened to that stuff even when I was a hippie.  I guess that's a compliment. 

I had eclectic musical taste, and still do to an extent, though I still listen to a fairly wide swath of secular music, I've removed the trash that is patently offensive and base.

I like SOME CCM, mainly Twila Paris, Margaret Becker, the Imperials, but I haven't listened to any of it in more than a decades.

I don't slap a blanket label on a genre, though Rap pretty much bites all the way around, and I haven't heard any opera that makes me say "oooh, play that again".

  I hate sappy contemporary "praise and worship" music with a passion.  I'd much rather listen to hymns, even if they're interpreted into a modern instrumentation.  And, IMO, Bach was the greatest composer who ever lived.  I've listened to his Christmas Oratorio so many times I think I have the whole thing memorized. 

But I'm also a big fan of good instrumental jazz, whether it's big band jazz or Steve Morse's blend of bluegrass, jazz, and metal.

I like bluegrass and some jazz as well (not the fusion type so much), and definitely not a fan of metal, or any other form that tends towards musical distortion and/or music that drowns out the lyrics.  That notion of hearing and understanding the lyrics is probably the single most over-riding driving force in my proclivities.  I love a good story, whether on the big screen or in a lyrical form.

Not even this?  (you have to get past the German, first)


http://youtu.be/O7yJxrsLp0s

 

[biscuit1953]

One of the blessings of modern Christian music (any style) is the fresh, new, current praise and adoration unto Jesus Christ by new fresh converts! Not that the old is worthless, and I enjoy singing old hymns, but the new songs they write and sing comes from their hearts. Many young people today don't understand the history of music and its relationship to the Church - they just pick up an instrument and sing what they know and can.

Let me share what Matthew Henry wrote about Matthew 9:17 ... "Great caution and prudence are necessary, that young converts may not receive gloomy and forbidding ideas of the service of our Lord; but duties are to be urged as they are able to bear them."

I wonder, should and can young people today bear the weight of removing their modern impression and understanding of music? Should it be taken away and replaced with old, and yes gloomy, ideas?


My guess is Jesus would say these new converts are like new wine! They get new bottles!

I believe you have hit the nail on the head.  I much prefer the old hymns in church services but have come to appreciate how the younger generation expresses their own praise. 

Eph 5:19  Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

I believe the "spiritual songs" are songs like the "new song" sung in Revelation 5:9.  Every individual has a song that only he can sing and is unique to him.  To show how "relevant" music can be I simply give the following.

“What is wrong with the inspiring hymns with which we grew up? When I go to church, it is to worship God, not to be distracted with learning a new hymn. Last Sunday’s was particularly unnerving. The tune was un-singable, and the new harmonies were quite distorting.” (From a letter written in 1890 concerning the new song “What a Friend We Have in Jesus.”)

"I for one refuse to be party to the demise of the true Church by singing such songs." Don't fight your church family, please. Read this letter written to a Pastor:
"I am no music scholar, but I feel I know appropriate church music when I hear it. Last Sunday’s new hymn – if you can call it that – sounded like a sentimental love ballad one would expect to hear crooned in a saloon. If you insist on exposing us to rubbish like this – in God’s house! – don’t be surprised if many of the faithful look for a new place to worship. The hymns we grew up with are all we need." (1863, a letter written about the song “Just As I Am”)

It reminds me of David Cloud getting up in arms about a Baptist church singing "Shout To the Lord" because it was written by the "Hillsong" group.  Funny I have never heard him criticize "Faith of Our Fathers" being sung in "fundamental" churches even though it was written by Cardinal Gibbons.  Don't try to force someone to like your style of music but allow others the freedom to have a different taste. This doesn't mean that all contemporary music is good and should be tolerated no matter what the content.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

And......... the thread has turned into a debate on music.

Yes.  The IFB is shrinking.  I have left the form in which I grew up.  I am one of those HB punks.  Guess what?  We rebelled because we saw the hypocritical position of the leadership and the folly of all things HAC.  We were smart enough to recognize that there was something wrong about the system in which we grew up, but we had no resource to find what the answer, or, in some cases, what the problem really was.  Many of us fled completely from the system.  Some refused to abandon religion, so found another golden calf to chase.  Some of us tried becoming HACkers, only to realize later that there really is no hope in the system.  Very, Very few remained as fruit unto Jack Hyles.

I am looking for IFB reform.  I tried the non-denom group and found their methods and liberality to be quite licentious which proved rather irritating.  I tried the Southern Baptists and found many good people, but an association with Calvin and such leadership issues to be against my understanding of NT church order.

 

[Tim]

And......... the thread has turned into a debate on music.

Yes.  The IFB is shrinking.  I have left the form in which I grew up.  I am one of those HB punks.  Guess what?  We rebelled because we saw the hypocritical position of the leadership and the folly of all things HAC.  We were smart enough to recognize that there was something wrong about the system in which we grew up, but we had no resource to find what the answer, or, in some cases, what the problem really was.  Many of us fled completely from the system.  Some refused to abandon religion, so found another golden calf to chase.  Some of us tried becoming HACkers, only to realize later that there really is no hope in the system.  Very, Very few remained as fruit unto Jack Hyles.

I am looking for IFB reform.  I tried the non-denom group and found their methods and liberality to be quite licentious which proved rather irritating.  I tried the Southern Baptists and found many good people, but an association with Calvin and such leadership issues to be against my understanding of NT church order.

Music is a key part of worship. How can one look at a Church and ignore their worship? If the worship aspect seems off then most assume the rest is off. Sadly - as important as music is ... it is not the best way to judge another Church.

 

[Bruh]

Is it just me or is anyone else noticing that there a mass movement away from the IFB movement? I have been running into and talking with a slew of former FBC kids (well they are all grow up now, but still kids to me! LOL) that want nothing to do with the IFB movement. There are also many long time members of FBC that have left as well and attending other churches in the area. Everyone of them has the same story how they are tired of that junk. It goes two ways - either they are out of church totally or they are going to (and loving) way more contemporary church. The ones out of church are a lot less than the ones that are still in church. I also notice they seem quite upbeat, extremely happy and very committed to the Lord. I always feel very blessed and encouraged after these encounters.

Has anyone else noticed this?

The Hyles side, which is what you are referring to.  Yes, there is a mass movement.  Now, I know a few ppl that have left that side of the IFB.  Now, the other side, as for my experience I do not know any. 

I think it is very sad when, all someone knows of the IFB is the Hyles side.  In fact, if that is all I knew I would be long gone myself. 

I was very fortunate to grow up spiritually in a church that was IFB but has never had any affiliation with the Hyles, Gomez, Jenkins or even the Chappel's.  When I moved out of state and began to attend a 100% Hyles church, I was appalled to say the least.  I heard different things about that side but never really experienced it.  I have learned that there is a HUGE difference. 

The preaching is sound and biblical and even within context.  There is no preaching against going to the movies or women that wear pants, drinking, smoking or the like.  No brow beating every week.  You would be surprised what good sound preaching within context will do for ppl.  Anyway this is my 2 cents.   

 

[subllibrm]

Revelation Song

Nasty stuff right there.  :

 

[subllibrm]

Or even worse

Keith & Kristyn Getty "In Christ Alone"