Jesus was a "friend of sinners"?

[Smellin Coffee]

*I understand that we are all sinners. I'm talking about those living a lifestyle that is in direct violation of God's Word (drunkards, adulterers, gluttons, homosexuals, etc.). 

Which is exactly how his ragtag crew of followers was perceived by the religious leaders who followed the Law.

That is a point well-taken. Relative to that, I am not opposed to befriending anyone with the express purpose of influencing them positively and ultimately leading them to the Lord. What I am against is using Jesus' example as justification to play footsies with the world. Jesus did not do that in any form or fashion.

He made Himself available and even sought out those who needed Him the most. The result was always a changed situation; i.e., "Go, and sin no more."

We have men and women here in our church that have been saved in our jail ministry or in our addictions program. To the world, these folks are felons, thieves, drug addicts, whoremongers, etc. However, I didn't think we were talking about "hanging out" with saved folks who the world perceives to be social outcasts and vile sinners. I thought we were talking about people who were actually engaged in such lifestyles.

Have you ever heard someone say, "Come party with me and get plastered. 'Friendly' chicks will be there so we won't tell your wife. Party like Jesus!"? I've been a Christian for 42 years and have yet heard someone use Jesus as the reason for their indulgences. Maybe it is just me but I see this as much ado about nothing. Unless I'm not reading something correctly...

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Maybe it is just me but I see this as much ado about nothing. Unless I'm not reading something correctly...

Perhaps I arrived at the wrong conclusions by reading the parent thread of this discussion. Here's what I saw:

Would you attend a homosexual wedding if invited?

If it were a close enough friend of mine, yes. And I would even buy the couple a wedding gift of some kind. (emphasis mine)

The implication was that you saw nothing wrong with a Christian having a "close friend" who is living in open sin and in direct violation of God's Word. With the passages offered in the other thread, it was implied that it was okay since Jesus Himself "associated" with sinners. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The implication was that you saw nothing wrong with a Christian having a "close friend" who is living in open sin and in direct violation of God's Word. With the passages offered in the other thread, it was implied that it was okay since Jesus Himself "associated" with sinners.

Is this a homosexual thing?  Are you saying we should just give up on homosexuals, or ostracize all people who are in direct violation of God's word?  Because I'm guessing everyone here is in some way in direct violation of God's word, so we shouldn't have any close friends, period. 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Maybe it is just me but I see this as much ado about nothing. Unless I'm not reading something correctly...

Perhaps I arrived at the wrong conclusions by reading the parent thread of this discussion. Here's what I saw:

Would you attend a homosexual wedding if invited?

If it were a close enough friend of mine, yes. And I would even buy the couple a wedding gift of some kind. (emphasis mine)

The implication was that you saw nothing wrong with a Christian having a "close friend" who is living in open sin and in direct violation of God's Word. With the passages offered in the other thread, it was implied that it was okay since Jesus Himself "associated" with sinners.

So right/wrong "closeness" is determinative based on whether one rejoices with one who rejoices and weeps with one who weeps regardless of the circumstances?

Would you think it would ever be right to attend a gay wedding or a funeral for a person who is gay? What if it happened to a gay relative like a biological brother or sister?

 

[T-Bone]

Yes He was & Yes He is....thankfully!

http://youtu.be/BY6VAy9y_iQ

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Is this a homosexual thing?  Are you saying we should just give up on homosexuals, or ostracize all people who are in direct violation of God's word?  Because I'm guessing everyone here is in some way in direct violation of God's word, so we shouldn't have any close friends, period. 

Not a homosexual thing at all. I would include any lost person. I believe the Bible makes it very clear that the world should not be our close, personal friends.

 

[rsc2a]

"The world" has about five different meanings in the NT. I think it's important to make clear the definition being used.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I believe the Bible makes it very clear that the world should not be our close, personal friends.

Can you quote me some scripture on that? 

I know it says do not love the world or the things in it.  Are you saying "things" means "people"? 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]I know it says do not love the world or the things in it.  Are you saying "things" means "people"? [/quote]

Only people I don't like.

 

[Bruh]

The problem here is that IP used the verse, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them," as a way of saying you shouldn't attend your friend's gay wedding.  The question is, what does it mean to have fellowship with the works of darkness?  That's not talking about fellowship with the people.  It's talking about fellowship with the works. 

So what about, "Be not ye therefore partakers with them?"  Unless you're getting married to a person of the same sex at the wedding, you're not partaking with them.  You're there as a friend.

If a person is invited to a wedding it is an honor that they would think to invite you.  Therefore the person would attend the wedding to celebrate............................the Holy Matrimony of the two women or two men.....................Oh, wait never mind.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I believe the Bible makes it very clear that the world should not be our close, personal friends.

Can you quote me some scripture on that? 

I know it says do not love the world or the things in it.  Are you saying "things" means "people"?

Before you answer "the lost", I seem to recall there was this rich kid who wanted to inherit eternal life.  Jesus told him to do something he couldn't do.  So he walked away lost. 

And yet it says, "21 Jesus looked at him and loved him."

 

[Bruh]

Maybe it is just me but I see this as much ado about nothing. Unless I'm not reading something correctly...

Perhaps I arrived at the wrong conclusions by reading the parent thread of this discussion. Here's what I saw:

Would you attend a homosexual wedding if invited?

If it were a close enough friend of mine, yes. And I would even buy the couple a wedding gift of some kind. (emphasis mine)

The implication was that you saw nothing wrong with a Christian having a "close friend" who is living in open sin and in direct violation of God's Word. With the passages offered in the other thread, it was implied that it was okay since Jesus Himself "associated" with sinners.

So right/wrong "closeness" is determinative based on whether one rejoices with one who rejoices and weeps with one who weeps regardless of the circumstances?

Would you think it would ever be right to attend a gay wedding or a funeral for a person who is gay? What if it happened to a gay relative like a biological brother or sister?

If a person is invited to a wedding it is an honor that they would think to invite you.  Therefore the person would attend the wedding to celebrate............................the Holy Matrimony of the two women or two men.....................Oh, wait never mind.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

So right/wrong "closeness" is determinative based on whether one rejoices with one who rejoices and weeps with one who weeps regardless of the circumstances?

Again, not at all. We can rejoice and/or weep with anyone. It is a different matter altogether who we choose as our close, personal friends.

Allow me to define those terms - I believe "close, personal friends" to be those who we go to for advice or counsel. Those who we go to when we're needing encouragement. Those who, perhaps, we want to be like. Those friends that we know will help us draw closer to the Lord. In short, those that we allow to influence ourselves and our family. 

I know full well that these points could be picked apart one by one. I also know that there are lost people who possess qualities that are admirable. But, as I stated above, it is my belief that the Bible forbids (at the very least it strongly discourages) close associations with the world. 

Would you think it would ever be right to attend a gay wedding or a funeral for a person who is gay? What if it happened to a gay relative like a biological brother or sister?

Funeral? Yes. Wedding? No. Not even a family member. That is my personal position.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

I believe the Bible makes it very clear that the world should not be our close, personal friends.

Can you quote me some scripture on that?

I would be most happy to do that:

"Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God" (James 4:4)

Who is "the world"? Jesus Himself gave us that answer:

"If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you" (John 15:19)

"I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world" (John 17:14)

Jesus also gave a pretty clear description of the world:

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do" (John 8:44) Note: We can say, "Not my friend. They would never do anything like that." Well, your argument is with Jesus, not me.

So, in the context in which I am speaking, the "world" would be anyone who has not been born again by the Spirit of God.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

I believe the Bible makes it very clear that the world should not be our close, personal friends.

Can you quote me some scripture on that? 

I know it says do not love the world or the things in it.  Are you saying "things" means "people"?

Before you answer "the lost", I seem to recall there was this rich kid who wanted to inherit eternal life.  Jesus told him to do something he couldn't do.  So he walked away lost. 

And yet it says, "21 Jesus looked at him and loved him."

This is totally irrelevant. No one said anything about not loving the lost. Having compassion on the lost and trying to reach them with the gospel is not making close, personal friendships with the world.

 

[rsc2a]

Pesky word that "world"...

...For God so loved the world...

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Pesky word that "world"...

...For God so loved the world...

It makes me wonder if you're really reading the posts above. Loving the world (the lost) is not the issue...never was.

You only have one strike left. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I would be most happy to do that:

"Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God" (James 4:4)

Friendship with the world (loving the same things the world loves) is not the same thing as friendship with sinners. 

Who is "the world"? Jesus Himself gave us that answer:

"If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you" (John 15:19)

"I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world" (John 17:14)

Yes, the world hates us.  Still nothing about being friends with sinners.  (By the way, I could also counter with, "well this friend doesn't hate me, so he can't be the world.")

Jesus also gave a pretty clear description of the world:

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do" (John 8:44) Note: We can say, "Not my friend. They would never do anything like that." Well, your argument is with Jesus, not me.

So, in the context in which I am speaking, the "world" would be anyone who has not been born again by the Spirit of God.

What?  I see no mention of "world" there.  And I see no mention of friendship. 

You've given nothing but non-sequiturs.  You make a huge leap of logic from "the world is bad" and "your father is the devil" to "don't be friends with anyone except those who have been born again." 

 

[rsc2a]

But if we are really friends with them,  we can't think we are better than them!

 

[Citadel of Truth]

You've given nothing but non-sequiturs.  You make a huge leap of logic from "the world is bad" and "your father is the devil" to "don't be friends with anyone except those who have been born again."

What you call "non-sequiturs" I call "rightly dividing." When Jesus said the "world hates you," was He not talking about actual people in the world? Wasn't it actual people that "despised and rejected" Him?

In Matthew 13, Jesus makes a very clear distinction of only two kinds of people in the world:"The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one" (verse 38) Which group do you think Jesus was talking about when He said that the "world hates you"?

Plus, you still haven't admitted that there is a difference in being a friend to the world (the lost) and being friends with the world.