Jesus was a "friend of sinners"?

rsc2a said:
But if we are really friends with them,  we can't think we are better than them!

Wow! Talk about a huge leap of logic! Where did I or anyone else say that we thought we were better than anyone? The only difference between me and the world is that I am a saved sinner and they are unsaved sinners. We are all sinners, nonetheless.
 
Citadel of Truth said:
rsc2a said:
But if we are really friends with them,  we can't think we are better than them!

Wow! Talk about a huge leap of logic! Where did I or anyone else say that we thought we were better than anyone? The only difference between me and the world is that I am a saved sinner and they are unsaved sinners. We are all sinners, nonetheless.

Oh!  Phariseeism is still quite strong. Make up a bunch of rules for people to follow. Declare some folks to be outcast and not worthy of association.  Then thank God that you are not like those wretched sinners.
 
Citadel of Truth said:
What you call "non-sequiturs" I call "rightly dividing." When Jesus said the "world hates you," was He not talking about actual people in the world? Wasn't it actual people that "despised and rejected" Him?

What you call "rightly dividing" I call "wrongly dividing".  "The world hates you" does not mean "don't be friends with anyone who is not saved".  Those two statements are not even similar enough to be in the same universe. 

Citadel of Truth said:
Plus, you still haven't admitted that there is a difference in being a friend to the world (the lost) and being friends with the world.

There's a huge difference.  The latter is not talking about being friends with people.  It's talking about being friends with the ways of the world -- that is, getting drunk, being obsessed with money, etc.  Like I said, attending a gay wedding is being friends with a person of the world.  Getting married to the same sex, yourself, is being friends with the ways of the world. 

Jesus was friends with tax collectors.  Jesus did not collect taxes. 
 
rsc2a said:
Citadel of Truth said:
rsc2a said:
But if we are really friends with them,  we can't think we are better than them!

Wow! Talk about a huge leap of logic! Where did I or anyone else say that we thought we were better than anyone? The only difference between me and the world is that I am a saved sinner and they are unsaved sinners. We are all sinners, nonetheless.

Oh!  Phariseeism is still quite strong. Make up a bunch of rules for people to follow. Declare some folks to be outcast and not worthy of association.  Then thank God that you are not like those wretched sinners.

I understand now. This is a personal confession. Sorry, I thought you were talking about other folks' point of view. I'll pray about that Pharisaical attitude that plagues you. Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward recovery. I applaud you, my friend. 
 
Citadel of Truth said:
rsc2a said:
Citadel of Truth said:
rsc2a said:
But if we are really friends with them,  we can't think we are better than them!

Wow! Talk about a huge leap of logic! Where did I or anyone else say that we thought we were better than anyone? The only difference between me and the world is that I am a saved sinner and they are unsaved sinners. We are all sinners, nonetheless.

Oh!  Phariseeism is still quite strong. Make up a bunch of rules for people to follow. Declare some folks to be outcast and not worthy of association.  Then thank God that you are not like those wretched sinners.

I understand now. This is a personal confession. Sorry, I thought you were talking about other folks' point of view. I'll pray about that Pharisaical attitude that plagues you. Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward recovery. I applaud you, my friend.

Jesus wept.
 
Citadel of Truth said:
Smellin Coffee said:
So right/wrong "closeness" is determinative based on whether one rejoices with one who rejoices and weeps with one who weeps regardless of the circumstances?

Again, not at all. We can rejoice and/or weep with anyone. It is a different matter altogether who we choose as our close, personal friends.

Allow me to define those terms - I believe "close, personal friends" to be those who we go to for advice or counsel. Those who we go to when we're needing encouragement. Those who, perhaps, we want to be like. Those friends that we know will help us draw closer to the Lord. In short, those that we allow to influence ourselves and our family. 

I know full well that these points could be picked apart one by one. I also know that there are lost people who possess qualities that are admirable. But, as I stated above, it is my belief that the Bible forbids (at the very least it strongly discourages) close associations with the world. 

Would you think it would ever be right to attend a gay wedding or a funeral for a person who is gay? What if it happened to a gay relative like a biological brother or sister?

Funeral? Yes. Wedding? No. Not even a family member. That is my personal position.
Here we agree.


Luk 14:26
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Jesus and the Saints are my family, not my Brother, who claims to be an atheist, or my Cousin who writes musicals...
 
I think it's ironic that Citadel's signature is from Oscar Wilde, who was a homosexual.
Citadel, it appears that your righteousness derives from what you do or who you don't hang out with, rather than it being from Jesus, am I correct?
 
Recovering IFB said:
I think it's ironic that Citadel's signature is from Oscar Wilde, who was a homosexual.
I was not aware that he was a homosexual. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I'll change that immediately.

Citadel, it appears that your righteousness derives from what you do or who you don't hang out with, rather than it being from Jesus, am I correct?

May I ask you how you arrived at this conclusion?
 
Citadel of Truth said:
Recovering IFB said:
I think it's ironic that Citadel's signature is from Oscar Wilde, who was a homosexual.
I was not aware that he was a homosexual. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I'll change that immediately.

Citadel, it appears that your righteousness derives from what you do or who you don't hang out with, rather than it being from Jesus, am I correct?

May I ask you how you arrived at this conclusion?
ill point out specifics later when I'm on my desktop, hard to do from phone, in the OP you said that "Jesus wouldn't lower himself just to reach them

Do you realize that God humbled himself just to be a man?!? Phil. 2:8,the fact that the Creator would do that for sinful man should put all believers at awe for Him doing that, and should humble our hearts that God would choose to use us for His service.
too many point to what their standards are rather than point to what Jesus did on Calvary.
 
Recovering IFB said:
ill point out specifics later when I'm on my desktop, hard to do from phone, in the OP you said that "Jesus wouldn't lower himself just to reach them

My Brother, please do not quote me incorrectly or take my quotes out of context. Here is what I said:
What I do not read is that Jesus lowered Himself to their standard just to reach them. Jesus was a friend to sinners, but He was not a compromiser. Jesus was always the One who influenced the sinner, never letting the sinner influence Him.

Do you realize that God humbled himself just to be a man?!? Phil. 2:8,the fact that the Creator would do that for sinful man should put all believers at awe for Him doing that, and should humble our hearts that God would choose to use us for His service.

No disagreement here.

too many point to what their standards are rather than point to what Jesus did on Calvary.

"Standards" in the context of my OP, is their lifestyle.
 
So, seeing this thread morphed off a post I made in another thread, I thought I would weigh in.

This may be long, so read it or ignore it, your choice.

First of all, both Smellin and The Rogue set the premise that the words of Jesus trump the words of Paul (and I assume Peter, John, James etc as well). Foolish doctrine. The "words of Jesus" are not the words of Jesus, they are the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. How that makes them more authouratative than Genesis, Psalms, 1 Corinthians or Galatians is beyond me.

Second of all, a mixing of terms is taking place that often happens in this discussion. Associate, friend/friends, fellowship. They are obviously not the same words, so they carry different meanings while being at some level synonymous.

In regards to that, Christ was "friendly" towards anyone and everyone who was willing to talk. He was sharp with the closed minded, specifically the closed minded Pharisees and Saducees, but friendly towards Nicodemus. He associated with anyone and everyone, and as a result was criticized for it. Application? We should be willing to associate with anyone to reach them with the gospel. What he did limit however, was his fellowship. The word fellowship means (and meant) communion. I quoted Ephesians 5:11, 2 Corinthians 6:14 is a good cross reference, although most of you probably know that.

In posting about this, the topic of a wedding vs a funeral came up, specifically in regards to a homosexual wedding or a homosexual person funeral. They are completely different. A funeral is not for the dead, it is for the living. It is a time of grieving and mourning. That is done by sharing memories and, in a good funeral, hope in Christ with a Bible message. It is a time to show care and compassion, a perfect opportunity to share the love of Christ. A wedding is a celebration. It celebrates the union of two people. It is a time to express joy not mourning. There is nothing to rejoice over in a homosexual wedding, and your presence signifies your approval or at least your tolerance of an activity specifically prohibited in the scriptures. If a lost man and a lost woman get married, they are not violating the scriptures, they are in a small way even if it is unintentionally, honouring the scriptures. Better for them to marry than to live in fornication. A homosexual wedding on the other hand is a denial of the scriptures, it is a (whether it is intentional or unintentional) denial of the authourity of the scriptures.

Then one of the women with an alabaster box is mentioned. I assume the one in Luke 7. So, Smellin, I would be mad at you if I were her, you called her a prostitute, the scriptures do not. A sinner, yes, with indications that she was a notorious sinner, yes, a prostitute, that's not in there. It would also be important to not that nowhere in there do we see Jesus alone with her, in a compromising situation with her, nor do we see Jesus advocating her activity whatever it was even if it was prostitution, what we do see is Jesus saying to her, "go in peace". In other words, like he said to another woman, "go and sin no more". This is not advocating behaviour, this is "faith in Christ can change behaviour".

What we have fellowship with is important, it is in fact one of the marks of being a Biblical Christian.
 
[quote author=ItinerantPreacher]
Second of all, a mixing of terms is taking place that often happens in this discussion. Associate, friend/friends, fellowship. They are obviously not the same words, so they carry different meanings while being at some level synonymous. [/quote]

And world is one word with multiple meanings.  The idea that a believe should not associate with anyone but other believers is an anti-gospel.

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher]
In posting about this, the topic of a wedding vs a funeral came up, specifically in regards to a homosexual wedding or a homosexual person funeral. They are completely different. A funeral is not for the dead, it is for the living. It is a time of grieving and mourning. That is done by sharing memories and, in a good funeral, hope in Christ with a Bible message. It is a time to show care and compassion, a perfect opportunity to share the love of Christ. A wedding is a celebration. It celebrates the union of two people. It is a time to express joy not mourning. [/quote]

So marriage is for the dead,  not the living since they are completely different.

Actually,  this section is nothing more than a narrow narrowly defined view that is largely crap. My family knows I fully expect my funeral to be a time of joy, and I have participated in some that were.

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher]Then one of the women with an alabaster box is mentioned. I assume the one in Luke 7. So, Smellin, I would be mad at you if I were her, you called her a prostitute, the scriptures do not. A sinner, yes, with indications that she was a notorious sinner, yes, a prostitute, that's not in there. It would also be important to not that nowhere in there do we see Jesus alone with her, in a compromising situation with her, nor do we see Jesus advocating her activity whatever it was even if it was prostitution, what we do see is Jesus saying to her, "go in peace". In other words, like he said to another woman, "go and sin no more". This is not advocating behaviour, this is "faith in Christ can change behaviour". [/quote]

Jesus even being with her was a compromising situation.  Stop reading the Bible through your 21st century American lenses and learn to ask what those actions meant in the time in which they occurred.

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher]
What we have fellowship with is important, it is in fact one of the marks of being a Biblical Christian.
[/quote]

Who we have fellowship with is the mark of a Christian, namely Jesus.  And He welcomed the rejects of society.
 
rsc2a said:
You don't read well.
What I said was
He associated with anyone and everyone, and as a result was criticized for it. Application? We should be willing to associate with anyone to reach them with the gospel.
Reading the whole post might help
So marriage is for the dead,  not the living since they are completely different.
I see you read things into posts just like you read things into the scriptures.

Actually,  this section is nothing more than a narrow narrowly defined view that is largely crap. My family knows I fully expect my funeral to be a time of joy, and I have participated in some that were.
So you are saying the vast majority of funerals are a time of joy, that you expect no grieving, no mourning, but rather only rejoicing?

Jesus even being with her was a compromising situation.  Stop reading the Bible through your 21st century American lenses and learn to ask what those actions meant in the time in which they occurred.
Jesus associating with her was a problem only to the pharisaical Jews. They were the ones who made it a big deal, not the society he lived in. They were ignoring Leviticus 19:18  Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. OT by the way. Christ was fulfilling the law, not breaking it. They were teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. They were just as accountable to Leviticus 19:18 as they were to any other verse.

Who we have fellowship with is the mark of a Christian, namely Jesus.  And He welcomed the rejects of society.
He did. He welcomed them to a life of repentance and faith in Him as the only hope of eternal life. He then welcomed them to change their lives so that they live in line with or according to the scriptures.
 
rsc2a said:
And world is one word with multiple meanings.  The idea that a believe should not associate with anyone but other believers is an anti-gospel.

I think you are willfully ignoring the fact that no one has said that a believer should not associate with anyone but a believer. If someone has said that, could you please post it here for me to see?

So marriage is for the dead,  not the living since they are completely different.

I am not at all surprised that you arrived at this conclusion. :eek:
Is this how you read your....never mind; I already know the answer.

Actually,  this section is nothing more than a narrow narrowly defined view that is largely crap. My family knows I fully expect my funeral to be a time of joy, and I have participated in some that were.

If you would stay focused, you would know that the context of this whole issue is "the lost." Hence, a lost person's funeral. A lost person's wedding. You really think the funeral of a person suffering the torments of hell would be a time of joy? l think not, my friend. 

Jesus even being with her was a compromising situation.  Stop reading the Bible through your 21st century American lenses and learn to ask what those actions meant in the time in which they occurred.

Clearly, in your mind, it means that Jesus excused any and all behavior. That's not true regardless of how many times you say it.

Who we have fellowship with is the mark of a Christian, namely Jesus.  And He welcomed the rejects of society.

Absolutely, always in an effort to reach them with the gospel. Never just for the sake of "being friends."
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
And world is one word with multiple meanings.  The idea that a believe should not associate with anyone but other believers is an anti-gospel.

You don't read well.
What I said was
He associated with anyone and everyone, and as a result was criticized for it. Application? We should be willing to associate with anyone to reach them with the gospel.
Reading the whole post might help

I read fine. For you,  believers should tolerate non-believers.  Jesus had table fellowship with them.  Again you need to look say the historical context to find it what that actually meant.

So marriage is for the dead,  not the living since they are completely different.
I see you read things into posts just like you read things into the scriptures.

So you are saying the vast majority of funerals are a time of joy, that you expect no grieving, no mourning, but rather only rejoicing?

I didn't say anything about a majority of anything.  I said you cannot see past your own cultural biases and make dumb statements as a result.

Jesus even being with her was a compromising situation.  Stop reading the Bible through your 21st century American lenses and learn to ask what those actions meant in the time in which they occurred.
Jesus associating with her was a problem only to the pharisaical Jews. They were the ones who made it a big deal, not the society he lived in. They were ignoring Leviticus 19:18  Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. OT by the way. Christ was fulfilling the law, not breaking it. They were teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. They were just as accountable to Leviticus 19:18 as they were to any other verse.

Another history lesson: of the four  significant Jewish groups of the time (Saducees, Essnes, Pharisees, and Zealot), the Pharisees were the ones the common people most often identified with by a LARGE margin.

It was a big deal in Jewish society and this scandalous behavior would have been inappropriate for at least two of those other groups.

Who we have fellowship with is the mark of a Christian, namely Jesus.  And He welcomed the rejects of society.
He did. He welcomed them to a life of repentance and faith in Him as the only hope of eternal life. He then welcomed them to change their lives so that they live in line with or according to the scriptures.

Yet he blatantly violated parts of the Law. Why should your standards get special treatment?
 
ItinerantPreacher said:
First of all, both Smellin and The Rogue set the premise that the words of Jesus trump the words of Paul (and I assume Peter, John, James etc as well). Foolish doctrine. The "words of Jesus" are not the words of Jesus, they are the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. How that makes them more authouratative than Genesis, Psalms, 1 Corinthians or Galatians is beyond me.

You are correct in that the words of the Gospels were penned by other men at a later time. What makes them different is their precise goal to (as much as could be recalled) write down the major teachings/activities of the Master. Should they have captured those things, since it is He we are to follow and obey, they have to carry more weight. May as well make John's Gospel equivalent to Maccabees.

I realize that it is difficult for you because in order to espouse some of the tenets Christian dogma, one has to marginalize the teachings of Jesus.
 
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