Performance based 'Christianity'.

[Binaca Chugger]

As a Christian, is applying 1John 1:9 and dealing with/agreeing with God about certain sins in my life a form of performance based Christianity?

If I'm doing it to be accepted of God it is performance based Christianity.

If I am doing it to accept God's view of sin it is not.

So your answer is yes and no.
And, do you believe the Lord chastens his children?
If so, why?

For the reason the text gives.

For our profit that we may be partakers of His holiness.

It's understood that it's correction...instruction...discipline.
But, what do you think causes God to chasten one of His children?
Sin or wrongdoing on his or her part?

sanctification

I assume you mean that chastening relates to our sanctification....but, that doesn't answer my question:
What instigates/motivates/causes God to begin the process or act of chastening?
Is it sin or disobedience in the life of His children?

ask Job.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

As a Christian, is applying 1John 1:9 and dealing with/agreeing with God about certain sins in my life a form of performance based Christianity?

If I'm doing it to be accepted of God it is performance based Christianity.

If I am doing it to accept God's view of sin it is not.

So your answer is yes and no.
And, do you believe the Lord chastens his children?
If so, why?

For the reason the text gives.

For our profit that we may be partakers of His holiness.

It's understood that it's correction...instruction...discipline.
But, what do you think causes God to chasten one of His children?
Sin or wrongdoing on his or her part?

sanctification

I assume you mean that chastening relates to our sanctification....but, that doesn't answer my question:
What instigates/motivates/causes God to begin the process or act of chastening?
Is it sin or disobedience in the life of His children?

ask Job.

Or we could ask Paul about his thorn in the flesh...all of which God used to fulfill His purpose in His children. I don't think that is the same thing Hebrews 12 is referencing. One of Jobs friends used chasten but was later rebuked by God.

I am not saying all suffering is because of sin, far from it...but an honest reading of Hebrews 12 seems to make it clear the chastening there is exactly like a father correcting His child. I think Stevie Wonder could see that if he didn't begin with a pre-conceived notion.

I don't see that as performance based Christianity, but merely a loving Father protecting and teaching His child.

 

[Mathew Ward]

As a Christian, is applying 1John 1:9 and dealing with/agreeing with God about certain sins in my life a form of performance based Christianity?

If I'm doing it to be accepted of God it is performance based Christianity.

If I am doing it to accept God's view of sin it is not.

So your answer is yes and no.
And, do you believe the Lord chastens his children?
If so, why?

For the reason the text gives.

For our profit that we may be partakers of His holiness.

It's understood that it's correction...instruction...discipline.
But, what do you think causes God to chasten one of His children?
Sin or wrongdoing on his or her part?

sanctification

I assume you mean that chastening relates to our sanctification....but, that doesn't answer my question:
What instigates/motivates/causes God to begin the process or act of chastening?
Is it sin or disobedience in the life of His children?

ask Job.

Or we could ask Paul about his thorn in the flesh...all of which God used to fulfill His purpose in His children. I don't think that is the same thing Hebrews 12 is referencing. One of Jobs friends used chasten but was later rebuked by God.

I am not saying all suffering is because of sin, far from it...but an honest reading of Hebrews 12 seems to make it clear the chastening there is exactly like a father correcting His child. I think Stevie Wonder could see that if he didn't begin with a pre-conceived notion.

I don't see that as performance based Christianity, but merely a loving Father protecting and teaching His child.

So your position is that a Christian must confess his sins to restore fellowship with God and if he doesn't confess them then God will chasten him.

 

[rsc2a]

The chastening is the natural consequences of the disordered actions we commit.

Chastening from God is "super-natural".

Natural and supernatural is so often a distinction without a difference.

 

[Walt]

As a Christian, is applying 1John 1:9 and dealing with/agreeing with God about certain sins in my life a form of performance based Christianity?

If I'm doing it to be accepted of God it is performance based Christianity.

If I am doing it to accept God's view of sin it is not.

So your answer is yes and no.
And, do you believe the Lord chastens his children?
If so, why?

For the reason the text gives.

For our profit that we may be partakers of His holiness.

It's understood that it's correction...instruction...discipline.
But, what do you think causes God to chasten one of His children?
Sin or wrongdoing on his or her part?

God chastens one of His children when chastising will cause more glory to redound to Him.  Some Christians will take the chastening, and get right, and bring more glory to God.  Some Christians are not chastened via what we think of "punishment" -- perhaps the Holy Spirit speaks to him about how ungrateful he is; this works into his soul and all the good things that God has done for him leads him to repentance and glorifying God with his life.

Got a bit distracted -- God chastizes when it will work best to His glory.

 

[MrsRow]

Hebrews 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

for our profit

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Sounds like chastening ends up as a blessing.

 

[bgwilkinson]

God is always good.

His way is the best way.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

As a Christian, is applying 1John 1:9 and dealing with/agreeing with God about certain sins in my life a form of performance based Christianity?

If I'm doing it to be accepted of God it is performance based Christianity.

If I am doing it to accept God's view of sin it is not.

So your answer is yes and no.
And, do you believe the Lord chastens his children?
If so, why?

For the reason the text gives.

For our profit that we may be partakers of His holiness.

It's understood that it's correction...instruction...discipline.
But, what do you think causes God to chasten one of His children?
Sin or wrongdoing on his or her part?

sanctification

I assume you mean that chastening relates to our sanctification....but, that doesn't answer my question:
What instigates/motivates/causes God to begin the process or act of chastening?
Is it sin or disobedience in the life of His children?

ask Job.

Or we could ask Paul about his thorn in the flesh...all of which God used to fulfill His purpose in His children. I don't think that is the same thing Hebrews 12 is referencing. One of Jobs friends used chasten but was later rebuked by God.

I am not saying all suffering is because of sin, far from it...but an honest reading of Hebrews 12 seems to make it clear the chastening there is exactly like a father correcting His child. I think Stevie Wonder could see that if he didn't begin with a pre-conceived notion.

I don't see that as performance based Christianity, but merely a loving Father protecting and teaching His child.

So your position is that a Christian must confess his sins to restore fellowship with God and if he doesn't confess them then God will chasten him.

No, that general statement  is not my position.
My position is that my sin, past, present and future are forgiven
My position is that, many times in Scripture we are told to confess our sins, Jesus in the model prayer specifically tells us to do so.
As to chastening, it is clear and specific that it is discipline of of father toward His child. Now, chastening may or may not be because of sin...but it is awways for the good of the child and the glory of the Father.

Now, what, pray tell, is YOUR position?
That Jesus didn't mean what He said about asking forgiveness?
That 1 John is a verse concerning salvation?
That chastening isn't chastening?
That sin somehow enhances your relationship with God because it shows you aren't performance based in your brand of christianity?
That a Christian should just ignore sin so that grace gets an opportunity to abound?
What is your position?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

God is always good.

His way is the best way.

You should change your forum name to Captain Obvious! 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

As a Christian, is applying 1John 1:9 and dealing with/agreeing with God about certain sins in my life a form of performance based Christianity?

If I'm doing it to be accepted of God it is performance based Christianity.

If I am doing it to accept God's view of sin it is not.

So your answer is yes and no.
And, do you believe the Lord chastens his children?
If so, why?

For the reason the text gives.

For our profit that we may be partakers of His holiness.

It's understood that it's correction...instruction...discipline.
But, what do you think causes God to chasten one of His children?
Sin or wrongdoing on his or her part?

God chastens one of His children when chastising will cause more glory to redound to Him.  Some Christians will take the chastening, and get right, and bring more glory to God.  Some Christians are not chastened via what we think of "punishment" -- perhaps the Holy Spirit speaks to him about how ungrateful he is; this works into his soul and all the good things that God has done for him leads him to repentance and glorifying God with his life.

Got a bit distracted -- God chastizes when it will work best to His glory.

I would agree that everything God does is for His glory!
Chastening in the life of His children is for their benefit and His glory. Not punishment...sin has already been paid for....

 

[MrsRow]

Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby

grievous = causing or characterized by severe pain, suffering, or sorrow ,a grievous wound
Synonyms
bitter, brutal, burdensome, cruel, excruciating, harsh, grim, hard, hardhanded, heavy, inhuman, murderous, onerous, oppressive, rough, rugged, searing, severe, stiff, tough, trying


sin had already been paid for when God punished Ananias and Sapphira too

 

[Mathew Ward]

No, that general statement  is not my position.
My position is that my sin, past, present and future are forgiven
My position is that, many times in Scripture we are told to confess our sins, Jesus in the model prayer specifically tells us to do so.
As to chastening, it is clear and specific that it is discipline of of father toward His child. Now, chastening may or may not be because of sin...but it is awways for the good of the child and the glory of the Father.

Now, what, pray tell, is YOUR position?
That Jesus didn't mean what He said about asking forgiveness?
That 1 John is a verse concerning salvation?
That chastening isn't chastening?
That sin somehow enhances your relationship with God because it shows you aren't performance based in your brand of christianity?
That a Christian should just ignore sin so that grace gets an opportunity to abound?
What is your position?

"Many times in Scripture we are told" Not sure that is true...We have Jesus (before His death and the start of the NT, a little nit picky on my part) and 1 John 1:9. Doesn't seem like many times.

I believe 1 John 1:9 is about salvation. Confess for salvation, think Romans 10:9. Cleansed from all unrighteousness (not just what you asked for forgiveness for)

Chastening is chastening, I haven't heard anyone say otherwise. Not sure what your point is.

I'm not sure where you get that anyone thinks or has put forth that sin enhances your relationship with God. I don't hold to it.

Not sure where you get that anyone has said that we should ignore sin or sin more to have grace abound. I don't hold to it.

Romans 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Paul is pretty clear that we should not sin because we are under grace...Romans 6:15  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

My position is that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for all my sins as my substitutionary atonement and became the propitiation for all my sins when I trusted Him by grace through faith. So every sin that would ever commit has been paid in full by Him.

I think the question then is what do I do with the sin I commit (after salvation) that God has forgiven of?

Simply, I repent of it. I change my mind about my sin and agree with God that it was sin.

Now if you want to confess it to God (not for forgiveness) because you think it is a mark of a Christian (I don't think you brought this up, but I know some that hold to this position), then by all means confess on.

It would be interesting to note if you asked the members in the church you pastor what happens when they confess their sin in accordance to 1 John 1:9. My experience is that their answers will be to restore fellowship and/or to have their sins forgiven. Now obviously if you want to boost the answers to your favor you could ask this after teaching a series on 1 John 1:9.

I am available for such a series ;D 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Matthew Ward:
I think the question then is what do I do with the sin I commit (after salvation) that God has forgiven of?

Simply, I repent of it. I change my mind about my sin and agree with God that it was sin.

Now if you want to confess it to God (not for forgiveness) because you think it is a mark of a Christian (I don't think you brought this up, but I know some that hold to this position), then by all means confess on.

It would be interesting to note if you asked the members in the church you pastor what happens when they confess their sin in accordance to 1 John 1:9. My experience is that their answers will be to restore fellowship and/or to have their sins forgiven. Now obviously if you want to boost the answers to your favor you could ask this after teaching a series on 1 John 1:9.

I am available for such a series ;D 

I think we agree, then....at least partially.
For, I would say that repentance involves God, and agreeing with Him about my sin...which is what confession means in 1 John 1:9. I don't think it the mark of anything, but obeying a clear teaching of Scripture. Did I mention Jesus teaches us to confess our sins in the model prayer? 
I'd be interested in what your Pastor teaches the people in your church about what happens when they confess their sins...and I'd guess they do.
Our people, the vast majority of them at least, know the difference between judicial forgiveness and their fellowship with the Father...who has accepted complete payment for their sin.

I'll pass....

 

[rsc2a]

When people confess their sins, it changes them. The transformation itself is the blessing irregardless of whether you get a Bentley.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

rsc2a
When people confess their sins, it changes them.

Exactly!

The transformation itself is the blessing irregardless of whether you get a Bentley.

r2 has straw and is willing to make man.....

 

[Bob H]

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


Just sayin'

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


Just sayin'

True, but there are many ways to "keep his commandments" and not all of them indicate that the person knows God.  To name but a few:

1. The Bible says to do X and not do Y, so I'm going to make an effort to do X and not do Y.
2. If I do X and not do Y, God will bless me, so I'm going to try to do X and not do Y.
3. I am doing X because God lives in me, and motivates me to do X, and I have no desire to do Y.

 

[Bob H]

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


Just sayin'

True, but there are many ways to "keep his commandments" and not all of them indicate that the person knows God....

Who said otherwise?



"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."



I was just sayin'

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


Just sayin'

True, but there are many ways to "keep his commandments" and not all of them indicate that the person knows God....

Who said otherwise?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I was just sayin'

I don't think anyone on either side of the argument here would say otherwise.
It seems clear to me that the OT, NT and The Words of Jesus, which to some here belong in a category all their own, are clear that a Christian should deal with sin in his or her life....not for judicial purposes but for his or her own good, growth and maturity and maintaining close fellowship with the Father.