Thank you, Jim

Vince said

"She wouldn't be doing it if it weren't for our children's church services. We wouldn't have children's church services if it weren't for the influence of Jim Vineyard."

Vince, are you declaring that Jim Vineyard is the the founder of children's church services?
 
Quick Interjection - - - - WHAT!?!

Jimbo did WHAT!?! in counseling girls!?!  Seriously?
Jimbo was NOT!?! in special forces!?!  HUH!?!

I have heard alot about the Vineyard clan.  These are new to me.  Care to elaborate (in a non-perverted manner)?
 
Now, to the subject of this thread.

Got to admit.  I was confused by the OP at first.  We all know that Vince has no love lost for Jimbo.  It seems like the three people who have the biggest ax to grind against Jimbo (at least on this forum) are arguing with each other about Jimbo.  Weird.

Then I began to think.  I have had alot of mogs hurt me deeply - VERY deeply.  I believe that I have forgiven these men (well, maybe::) ).  I am sometimes (not frequently) surprised when I find myself repeating or acting upon something they taught me.  Even though some men are tyrants, God can use even the tyrant mog to further me in my sanctification.  Sometimes, even the tyrant mog says something that impacts me, which I have applied to my life and found to be a help. 

I thought maybe the point of this thread was forgiveness.  But, I have been surprised that Vince has not really mentioned this as the point of his post.
 
"I thought maybe the point of this thread was forgiveness.  But, I have been surprised that Vince has not really mentioned this as the point of his post."

Thank you, BC. The purpose of my post was to point out that Jim is not the monster he is being betrayed as. I don't have to slander Jim to show that he has a long history of serious wrongs against the saints, and I'm one of those he has wronged. But it's hard enough to forgive Jim for what he's done, without adding things he has not done.

In forgiving a grievous wrong, there are two opposite mistakes. One is to say that he's the man of God, so it isn't his fault. That is the official position of HAC and OBC, and it ignores the fact that God grants responsibility according to ABILITY, not Godliness. It also excuses leaders form taking responsibility for their sins. Jim is not a man of God, and he never was, even though he preached strongly at HAC that he was.

The other mistake is to say that if I am right, then my opponent must be a monster. This ignores the fact that God works in the lives of all His saints, including Jim. I worked for him in Oklahoma, and I assure you that he had improved from HAC. (He was still pretty bad, though). As hard as it is to believe, Jim has his good points, and I did learn good things from him.
 
Vince Massi said:
As hard as it is to believe, Jim has his good points, and I did learn good things from him.
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If you had left it at that, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Learning from someone is one thing; praising him and magnifying him is quite another.

"One man's mentor may very well be another man's monster." Citadel of Truth
 
Vince Massi said:
"I thought maybe the point of this thread was forgiveness.  But, I have been surprised that Vince has not really mentioned this as the point of his post."

Thank you, BC. The purpose of my post was to point out that Jim is not the monster he is being betrayed as. I don't have to slander Jim to show that he has a long history of serious wrongs against the saints, and I'm one of those he has wronged. But it's hard enough to forgive Jim for what he's done, without adding things he has not done.

In forgiving a grievous wrong, there are two opposite mistakes. One is to say that he's the man of God, so it isn't his fault. That is the official position of HAC and OBC, and it ignores the fact that God grants responsibility according to ABILITY, not Godliness. It also excuses leaders form taking responsibility for their sins. Jim is not a man of God, and he never was, even though he preached strongly at HAC that he was.

The other mistake is to say that if I am right, then my opponent must be a monster. This ignores the fact that God works in the lives of all His saints, including Jim. I worked for him in Oklahoma, and I assure you that he had improved from HAC. (He was still pretty bad, though). As hard as it is to believe, Jim has his good points, and I did learn good things from him.
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Wait a minute - - -WHAT!?!  He so grievously offended you at HAC that you will never be able to be in ministry in the United States again and had to flee the country and change denominations in order to enjoy church once more.  Then, you went to work for him in OKC???????

Somethin' ain't right.  Why would you do such a thing?  This makes as much sense as asking Eddie Lapina to chair an internal investigation on integrity.
 
Citadel, you're right. My original post was thoughtlessly worded and gave the wrong impression. I apologize to all the people I upset.

BC, hold your horses! Vineyard TRIED to destroy my ministry at HAC, but he didn't succeed. I taught Christian school for ten years. Jim was speaking at a church near me and bizarre as it seems, God clearly told me that he was going to ask me to work for him, and I was to accept. When I left Oklahoma, Jim gave me a recommendation, and he never badmouthed me to anyone (as far as I know) after I left. I didn't flee the US to get away from Jim--I earned enough money at a paper mill that I was able to retire at 52. When I got down here, I immediately began volunteer work, and I was surprised to find myself with small but successful ministries.
 
Vince Massi said:
Citadel, you're right. My original post was thoughtlessly worded and gave the wrong impression. I apologize to all the people I upset.

BC, hold your horses! Vineyard TRIED to destroy my ministry at HAC, but he didn't succeed. I taught Christian school for ten years. Jim was speaking at a church near me and bizarre as it seems, God clearly told me that he was going to ask me to work for him, and I was to accept. When I left Oklahoma, Jim gave me a recommendation, and he never badmouthed me to anyone (as far as I know) after I left. I didn't flee the US to get away from Jim--I earned enough money at a paper mill that I was able to retire at 52. When I got down here, I immediately began volunteer work, and I was surprised to find myself with small but successful ministries.
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Oh.  Somehow, I had pieced together from your posts, in my mind, a story that was very different than this one you just shared.  Still, I don't get subjecting yourself to someone who you knew to be an abuser of Christians.
 
Vince Massi said:
Citadel, you're right. My original post was thoughtlessly worded and gave the wrong impression. I apologize to all the people I upset.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but this is good enough for me. It's more than most would give, to be sure.

Speaking of AoG, that Jimmy Swaggart can sure play the piano, can't he?
 
"Still, I don't get subjecting yourself to someone who you knew to be an abuser of Christians."

BC, you raise a very valid, very intelligent point. I didn't THINK that God had called me to work for Jim, God very clearly told me. I approached Jim after his sermon and chatted friendly with him. Suddenly, he jerked, spun away, stared into space for a few seconds, and then asked me to work for him.

It would appear that God had to speak very clearly to both of us.
 
Vince Massi said:
In forgiving a grievous wrong, there are two opposite mistakes. One is...

The other mistake is to say that if I am right, then my opponent must be a monster. This ignores the fact that God works in the lives of all His saints, including Jim. I worked for him in Oklahoma, and I assure you that he had improved from HAC. (He was still pretty bad, though). As hard as it is to believe, Jim has his good points, and I did learn good things from him.
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I think this is what I tried to point out earlier.  I would add that people can even learn from monsters: let's shift the person to Joe Combs - I don't think any reasonable person would deny that he is a monster, yet, I have heard many people tell that they learned good and useful things in his class.
 
Vince Massi said:
Citadel, you're right. My original post was thoughtlessly worded and gave the wrong impression. I apologize to all the people I upset.

BC, hold your horses! Vineyard TRIED to destroy my ministry at HAC, but he didn't succeed. I taught Christian school for ten years. Jim was speaking at a church near me and bizarre as it seems, God clearly told me that he was going to ask me to work for him, and I was to accept. When I left Oklahoma, Jim gave me a recommendation, and he never badmouthed me to anyone (as far as I know) after I left. I didn't flee the US to get away from Jim--I earned enough money at a paper mill that I was able to retire at 52. When I got down here, I immediately began volunteer work, and I was surprised to find myself with small but successful ministries.
Click to expand...

Well Vince this is not the first time you have "thoughtlessly worded and gave the wrong impression" in one of your posts but it is the first time you have apologized for it.  One thing is for sure, when we post illogical, untrue, thoughtlessly worded or contradictory posts to what we have posted before, it will be pointed out to us and flair up interesting threads.  This thread is a good example of that.
 
This has been an interesting read.  I was never personally hurt in my 4 years at OBC, though many dear friends were.  I hadn't been there long when I began to see the inconsistencies and double standards.  I think the thing we have to remember is that God can accomplish anything with anyone.  The Bible is full of bad people He used to bring glory to Himself.  I believe a lot of good missionaries are on the field who trained at OBC, not "because" of Dr. V, but because of God.  I believe I learned some good life lessons there.  Will my own kids go to college there?  Not a chance!  Vince clarified a lot in his last few posts.
 
Vince Massi said:
"I thought maybe the point of this thread was forgiveness.  But, I have been surprised that Vince has not really mentioned this as the point of his post."

Thank you, BC. The purpose of my post was to point out that Jim is not the monster he is being betrayed as. I don't have to slander Jim to show that he has a long history of serious wrongs against the saints, and I'm one of those he has wronged. But it's hard enough to forgive Jim for what he's done, without adding things he has not done.

In forgiving a grievous wrong, there are two opposite mistakes. One is to say that he's the man of God, so it isn't his fault. That is the official position of HAC and OBC, and it ignores the fact that God grants responsibility according to ABILITY, not Godliness. It also excuses leaders form taking responsibility for their sins. Jim is not a man of God, and he never was, even though he preached strongly at HAC that he was.

The other mistake is to say that if I am right, then my opponent must be a monster. This ignores the fact that God works in the lives of all His saints, including Jim. I worked for him in Oklahoma, and I assure you that he had improved from HAC. (He was still pretty bad, though). As hard as it is to believe, Jim has his good points, and I did learn good things from him.
Click to expand...

Oh, but Jimmy is a monster, and he will answer to God one day for all those he has abused, maligned, blackmailed, and the list goes on.  Because you were somehow not touched by his evildoing does not mean he is not an evildoer, Vince.  Get your small head out of the sand.
 
cast.sheep said:
It's obvious that the whole OP was meant to stir things up.  Wait...wait...here it comes:  #9

As an outsider it seems to me that the original poster was bored and looking for a reaction...which he certainly got.  Oops!  #10

Why not just thank JV personally?  Through a letter, email, etc.  Why do it here? 

I wonder if his post made Jesus happy?  Glorified Him in ANY way?  He will probably say that it did and post some Bible verse supporting his view. 

Personally, I think PUBLICLY "thanking" men isn't healthy for them.  Giving them any PUBLIC praise or glory isn't healthy for them.  I've seen it over and over again.  Men are men and pride is a dangerous thing.  And we contribute to it when we PUBLICLY lift them up.  Why not go to God with it and allow Him to lift them up...praise them...give them glory?  Is God NOT capable? Do we have to do it for Him? 

Just wondering.
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Well said, Sheep.  Typical IFB MOG braggadocious bravado.
 
What's sad is that Bob Ross' grandson Jesse Jackson (Stone) left the IFB's and went liberal and seeker sensitive. But when Ross was busted for the cover up at his Church, Jesse lashed out on Facebook and made "Don't Judge" videos. Jesse is now a professional bodybuilder and his new "pastor" is Keith Craft, a prosperity/pro abortion/anti American pastor. Jesse left OBC/Windsor Hills in 09 and the Vineyards never forgave him for it. Also Jesse won't speak to Michael Shaver or Caleb Garraway anymore. A lot of IFB's are hoping Garraway runs for President in 2024 as America is going to hell with Joe Biden as president and yest Jesse Jackson (Stone) voted for him.

Jim Vineyard's legacy lives on and it's sad that Jesse never made peace with his former Master. I'm sure Tom would welcome Jesse back as well Joel McCarty who's now a seeker sensitive liberal megeachurch pastor who promotes BLM and worships Steven Furtick.

To think, those boys studied under the Vineayrds and Jim tried to install good Christian and conservative beliefs in them only for those boys to go full liberal.

You can thank Jesse Jackson (Stone) for helping Joe Biden become president. Thank God Jim Vineyard isn't alive to witness this.
 
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