The Free Will Challenge

Rockson said:
Well I'd say I'm not a new kid on the block when it comes to all you say. All through the years I've read what Calvinist claim but I take it to what they're REALLY saying without using words, and how the words they say can't be used in the manner in which they do.
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LOL You know better, of course.

Tells me how seriously I really need to take.anything you say.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Seems like a non-sequitur. Arminians don’t deny God’s sovereignty, yet rather don’t agree with Calvinst’s definition and application of God’s sovereignty.
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Arminians do believe in God's sovereignty and honest, thinking ones consider how such fits in their theological view. It is the rabid Anti-Calvinists who is obsessed with proving a Calvinist wrong that has a problem with God being sovereign over all things without also being responsible for sin and evil. We provide them a well thought out explanation and they accuse us of doublespeak. Oh well! 🤷‍♂️ I'm not really interested in proving Arminians wrong aside from feeling the duty to pull them from the "Pelagian Cliff" they may be careening towards! :cool: Aside from that, I am interested in the thought process of those who may disagree with me and how they arrive at their conclusions.
 
Ransom said:
LOL You know better, of course.
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Well I won't back down and cower when others like yourself imply you're better than me as you stated for one to have my beliefs would make me a simpleton and that I was ignorant.

These were your words not mine : Well, that's one way of looking at it, if you're a simpleton and ignorant of centuries of theological discussion on the topic

So wasn't it you here which was suggesting you're better than others and being extremely condescending?

So was I saying I'm better than others when I responded to you by saying I'm not a new kid on the block. No I was merely seeking to have to understand that I'm NOT ignorant of the centuries of theological discussions through the years that you spoke of. Being one who assesses thing too I WILL look beyond what people just say on the surface and will discern some things they're really saying without saying it. Does that mean I think I'm, better than them? Perhaps not but I'm not backing down from making an assessment.
 
Rockson said:
Well I won't back down and cower when others like yourself imply you're better than me as you stated for one to have my beliefs would make me a simpleton and that I was ignorant.

These were your words not mine : Well, that's one way of looking at it, if you're a simpleton and ignorant of centuries of theological discussion on the topic

So wasn't it you here which was suggesting you're better than others and being extremely condescending?

So was I saying I'm better than others when I responded to you by saying I'm not a new kid on the block. No I was merely seeking to have to understand that I'm NOT ignorant of the centuries of theological discussions through the years that you spoke of. Being one who assesses thing too I WILL look beyond what people just say on the surface and will discern some things they're really saying without saying it. Does that mean I think I'm, better than them? Perhaps not but I'm not backing down from making an assessment.
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No....It's quite clear you came to these forums with the belief that you were better than everyone. The way you started out in your postings proved this to be the case. You are still doing it by consistently doing nothing but whining about people allegedly making you the victim. UGH! What a loser! It almost sounds like we've got another "sock puppet" in our midst.
 
Ransom said:
Tells me how seriously I really need to take.anything you say.
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Perhaps that might be something you need to take up with God? I just wouldn't be presumptuous and assume you don't need to though. You might even consider me a donkey but remember even a donkey can speak the wisdom of God at times. Num 22:21
 
Rockson said:
Perhaps that might be something you need to take up with God? I just wouldn't be presumptuous and assume you don't need to though. You might even consider me a donkey but remember even a donkey can speak the wisdom of God at times. Num 22:21
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Yet, there seems to be little wisdom in what you continue to spew here. Please, say "hello" to Balaam for us. You've won the "Braying Ass" post of the day!
 
AverageJoe said:
No....It's quite clear you came to these forums with the belief that you were better than everyone. The way you started out in your postings proved this to be the case.
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Well if I truly did that I most sincerely do apologize. I would appreciate it you showed me exactly where I left that impression instead of your just making your accusations.



AverageJoe said:
UGH! What a loser!
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Well my God is always seeking to inspire me that I'm a victor in Christ Jesus. I would inspire you to think the same about yourself as I am interested in your edification.
 
AverageJoe said:
Yet, there seems to be little wisdom in what you continue to spew here. Please, say "hello" to Balaam for us. You've won the "Braying Ass" post of the day!
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It doesn't bother me when people might consider me to be the biggest fool.

I do know God can chose such ones to put to shame the wise, and the weak things to shame the things which are mighty. 1 Cor 1:27

Am I one such fool God has chosen to do this. I guess the future judgement will show.
 
Rockson said:
Well if I truly did that I most sincerely do apologize. I would appreciate it you showed me exactly where I left that impression instead of your just making your accusations.
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Sorry, but I don't do people's homework. Start with your first post and work your way forward in your responses to me...stating nothing but the obvious. I've made that point clear several times in responding to you. You're still trying to justify yourself. UGH!
Rockson said:
Well my God is always seeking to inspire me that I'm a victor in Christ Jesus. I would inspire you to think the same about yourself as I am interested in your edification.
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I sincerely doubt this.
 
Rockson said:
It doesn't bother me when people might consider me to be the biggest fool.

I do know God can chose such ones to put to shame the wise, and the weak things to shame the things which are mighty. 1 Cor 1:27

Am I one such fool God has chosen to do this. I guess the future judgement will show.
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You seem to think a LOT more highly of yourself than you ought. You're still showing signs of the "victim" mentality. Are you sure you're not related to "Vinney?"
 
Baptist Renegade said:
Arminians do believe in God's sovereignty and honest, thinking ones consider how such fits in their theological view. It is the rabid Anti-Calvinists who is obsessed with proving a Calvinist wrong that has a problem with God being sovereign over all things without also being responsible for sin and evil. We provide them a well thought out explanation and they accuse us of doublespeak.
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So how do you explain what it means for God to "ordain everything that comes to pass" (especially if the ordinary definition of ordain means "to cause")? How does God cause a human to sin without being at least in part culpable for that sin?
 
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ALAYMAN said:
So how do you explain what it means for God to "ordain everything that comes to pass" (especially if the ordinary definition of ordain means "to cause")? How does God cause a human to sin without being at least in part culpable for that sin?
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It is the difference between his active, directive will and his passive, permissive will. Some things God causes, other things, he allows. God CAUSES one's election and ALLOWS another's reprobation. One may ask why did God create mankind knowing he was going to rebel and fall into sin and perhaps even attribute culpability to God for allowing this to happen. Fact of the matter is, whether you are Calvinist or Arminian, these are the cold, hard facts so I guess I could throw this right back at an Arminian and ask how they would deal with it without saying that God is responsible for our sinful state.
 
Baptist Renegade said:
It is the difference between his active, directive will and his passive, permissive will. Some things God causes, other things, he allows.
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To many, this would sound like double-speak!
Baptist Renegade said:
God CAUSES one's election and ALLOWS another's reprobation. One may ask why did God create mankind knowing he was going to rebel and fall into sin and perhaps even attribute culpability to God for allowing this to happen. Fact of the matter is, whether you are Calvinist or Arminian, these are the cold, hard facts so I guess I could throw this right back at an Arminian and ask how they would deal with it without saying that God is responsible for our sinful state.
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This PROVES in their minds that this is double-speak. "Cold hard facts?" Proof?
 
Baptist Renegade said:
It is the difference between his active, directive will and his passive, permissive will. Some things God causes, other things, he allows. God CAUSES one's election and ALLOWS another's reprobation. One may ask why did God create mankind knowing he was going to rebel and fall into sin and perhaps even attribute culpability to God for allowing this to happen. Fact of the matter is, whether you are Calvinist or Arminian, these are the cold, hard facts so I guess I could throw this right back at an Arminian and ask how they would deal with it without saying that God is responsible for our sinful state.
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If you could patronize me, flesh out how "allows" and "ordains" coalesce in the Calvinist's understanding.

It seems to me that Spurgeon's quote is apropos here....

The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
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I know that Spurgeon was a Calvinist, but his preaching was such that it covered God's sovereignty AND man's freewill aren't used as battering rams against each other but rather complementary to each other. He seemed to be content to provide agreeance for the nigh irreconcilable competing truths, and at this point, that is where I still stand.
 
ALAYMAN said:
If you could patronize me, flesh out how "allows" and "ordains" coalesce in the Calvinist's understanding.

It seems to me that Spurgeon's quote is apropos here....


I know that Spurgeon was a Calvinist, but his preaching was such that it covered God's sovereignty AND man's freewill aren't used as battering rams against each other but rather complementary to each other. He seemed to be content to provide agreeance for the nigh irreconcilable competing truths, and at this point, that is where I still stand.
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I really don't know enough to flesh it out beyond what I already have aside from "Polly-Parroting" other sources that you or I could look up. I would just point out the two logical extremes:
  1. That God has ordained and directed all things including the most heinous of wicked and evil deeds ever committed by the vilest of men and is therefore the author of sin.
  2. That God is a victim of the wickedness and sinfulness of his creation and things that happen are out of his control.
I believe that both of us as well as every Calvinist and every "Free Willie" on this forum would agree that God is not on either end of these extremes.

I agree with Spurgeon (of course) but prefer the term "Man's Responsibility" over "Man's Free Will." Man does have a free will for which God will hold him accountable but this free will is affected by sin causing a man to "Will" to do things that are contrary to the things of God. I purposely play dumb regarding whether man in his fallen state has the ability to seek after God. The fact of the matter is that man in his sinful, fallen state WILL NOT seek after God but will run in the other direction as fast and as far away as possible! The one ability man has lost is the ability NOT to sin and once again, this is a point that Calvys and Arminys would agree.
 
Baptist Renegade said:
I really don't know enough to flesh it out beyond what I already have aside from "Polly-Parroting" other sources that you or I could look up. I would just point out the two logical extremes:
  1. That God has ordained and directed all things including the most heinous of wicked and evil deeds ever committed by the vilest of men and is therefore the author of sin.
  2. That God is a victim of the wickedness and sinfulness of his creation and things that happen are out of his control.
I believe that both of us as well as every Calvinist and every "Free Willie" on this forum would agree that God is not on either end of these extremes.

I agree with Spurgeon (of course) but prefer the term "Man's Responsibility" over "Man's Free Will." Man does have a free will for which God will hold him accountable but this free will is affected by sin causing a man to "Will" to do things that are contrary to the things of God. I purposely play dumb regarding whether man in his fallen state has the ability to seek after God. The fact of the matter is that man in his sinful, fallen state WILL NOT seek after God but will run in the other direction as fast and as far away as possible! The one ability man has lost is the ability NOT to sin and once again, this is a point that Calvys and Arminys would agree.
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Not being cheeky here, genuinely interested in the highlighted (#1) statement above. As it is worded, you stated that this is an extreme of the Calvinist spectrum in God ordaining all that comes to pass. I had thought that Calvinists would affirm no matter the severity/heinousness of an action that it still fell under the precept that God "ordains all that comes to pass", including the most heinous of human acts. Are you suggesting by your statement #1 that is not the case?
 
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