The Girl(s)

Boomer and I disagree on that verse. It says that in the image of God created He him. Male and female created he them. There is a DISTINCTION between the two. I Corinthians gives the SAME distinction and further explains the verse in Genesis. I respectfully disagree with him.
 
Look, I didn't write the Bible; I am just explaining what It says. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I'm reading it correctly.

Look at I Corinthians 11:7- "For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man."

The man is the image and glory of God BUT (which means that the next sentence is OPPOSITE the previous sentence) the woman is the glory of the man.

I am not taking this verse out of context- verse 3 makes it clear that the chain of command is Christ, man, woman.

I am not just making statements to make people mad. Someone said that the woman was created in the image of God and I just responded to that incorrect statement.
PLEASE TELL US, THEN, IN WHOSE IMAGE WOMAN WAS CREATED?
 
Of course there is a difference between the two.  Can males have babies?  Quote your verses in 1Cor, please.
 
Woman is a special creation, created by God FROM MAN AND FOR MAN.
 
lnf said:
Of course there is a difference between the two.  Can males have babies?  Quote your verses in 1Cor, please.

I Cor 11:7, but also read the verses before and after so that you see it in context. I have posted them on a previous page.

I am not saying that a woman has any less of a soul or spirit than a man. I am not saying that God loves women less. Maybe people interpret the word"image" to think I mean that?
 
3. Is sexual difference itself the image of God?
Karl Barth’s famous discussion says that it is.23 Genesis 1:27 may be divided into three parts: (a) “So God created man in his own image,” (b) “In the image of God he created him,” (c) “Male and female he created them.” Barth argues that (b) and (c) form a “synonymous parallelism,” typical of Hebrew poetry. Therefore, says Barth, the writer believed that the difference between male and female is the image of God. Some problems, however, attach to this idea:

(a) If this is the proper reading of Genesis 1:27, it would seem odd that this concept of the image is not found, suggested, or even alluded to elsewhere in the Bible. Indeed, as we have seen, Scripture elsewhere describes the image in other ways that, to say the least, would be hard to integrate with Barth’s definition, should we adopt it.

(b) Although there is a corporate aspect of the image (see F below), the image also pertains to individual human beings. That is evident in Genesis 5:3, where Adam transmits his “image” (the image of God, according to verse 1) to his son Seth. That is also evident in Genesis 9:6; 1 Corinthians 11:7; James 3:9; Colossians 3:10, and elsewhere. But individual human beings are either male or female, not “male and female,” as in Genesis 1:27c. Therefore, the bearer of the image need not be “male and female” as Barth suggests.

(c) Scripture never represents God as sexually differentiated or as entering into marriage with Himself, although to be sure there are trinitarian pluralities within the one divine nature. It would therefore be odd to claim that sexuality is the essence of the divine image, though I do believe that it (together with everything else we are) is a component thereof.

(d) Meredith G. Kline presents a devastating exegetical critique of Barth’s position.24 He argues that the reference to “male and female” in Genesis 1:27 cannot state the essence of the image of God, because (i) it is not found in the statement of the divine intention in verse 26; (ii) sections (a) and (b) of verse 27 form a complete synonymous parallelism without 27c; so 27c serves, not as an additional parallel, but as a further description of how man is created in God’s image. The point is simply that the image of God extends to both men and women (same in 5:1ff.); (iii) In Kline’s view, 27c and 5:2a also point ahead to the following contexts. The “male and female” in 27c describes a prerequisite for the subduing of the earth in 28ff. In 5:2a, it presents the scope of the divine blessing in 5:2b.

(e) Barth does not stop with saying that the image is human sexual differentiation. Perhaps realizing the implausibility of that notion, he says that the sexual difference is only the original concrete form of social relationships that are more properly the content of the divine image.25 There is some truth in this idea (see F below), but: (i) Though social differentiation is an aspect of the image, it is not the essence or definition of the image (see below). (ii) This move increases the exegetical implausibility of Barth’s proposal. If it is unlikely that the writer of Genesis identified the image with sexual difference, it is even less likely that he was using that sexual difference as a kind of stand-in for social differentiation in general. Nothing else in Scripture suggests such an idea.26

4. Is sexual differentiation an aspect of the image?
Yes, for everything we are images God. The point is not that God is male, female, or both. To say that our eyes image God, remember, is not to say that God has eyes; it is rather to say that our eyes picture something divine. Similarly, our sexuality pictures God’s attributes and capacities:

(a) It mirrors God’s creativity, by which He brings forth sons and daughters (John 1:12; Romans 8:14ff.; etc.).

(b) The love of a husband for his wife pictures God’s love for His people (Ezekiel 16; Hosea 1-3; Ephesians 5:25-33).

(c) Scripture describes God both in male and in female terms, though the overwhelming preponderance of imagery is male. The reason, I think, is basically that Scripture wants us to think of God as Lord (Exodus 3:14; 6:3, 7; 33:19; 34:5ff.; Deuteronomy 6:4ff.; cf. Romans 10:9f; 1 Corinthians 12:3; Philippians 2:11), and lordship, in Scripture, always connotes authority.27 Since in the Biblical view women are subject to male authority in the home and the church,28 there is some awkwardness in speaking of God in female terms. Our need today, in my opinion, is for a far greater appreciation of the Lordship of God and of Christ.29 Therefore, in my view, the movement to use unisex or female language in referring to God is fundamentally wrongheaded from a Biblical perspective.

(d) Nevertheless, the very submission of the woman also images God. See E(2) above. God the Lord is not too proud to be our “helper.” Christ the Lord is not unwilling to be a servant. Godly women stand as models, often as rebukes, to all who would be leaders (Matthew 20:20-28).30

As we saw earlier, Barth regards the “sexual image” as a kind of stand-in for a “social image.” We image God, he thinks, in social relationships.31 For reasons noted, I reject the identification of the image with such relationships. Individuals, not just corporate groups, are in the image of God. On the other hand, there is a social aspect of the image, for the image contains everything human. In the Old Testament, God speaks as a plurality (Genesis 1:26; 3:5, 22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8), which may reflect His trinitarian nature or, perhaps more likely, a heavenly “society” or “council” that God shares with His angels (Psalm 89:7).32 The New Testament reveals God Himself as a Trinity, a society of Father, Son and Spirit. The task associated with the image (Genesis 1:28) is one that no one can perform fully as an individual. Through Scripture, God calls to Himself as his children not only individuals, but also families, nations, churches. Like godly individuals, godly families image God (Ephesians 5:22-6:4, noting 5:1; 1 Peter 3:1-7, noting 2:21-25; 4:1, 13-16). Godly nations also display the Lord’s righteousness, peace, and glory. Preeminently, however, the corporate image of Christ in the world today is His body, the church. Note Romans 12:4ff.; 1 Corinthians 12:12ff.; Ephesians 2:16; Colossians 1:18, which show the corporateness of the body figure in the New Testament.33

Does a group image God better than an individual? Well, groups do resemble God in ways that individuals cannot by themselves, e.g., in taking counsel together or in displaying love for one another. Even the unity of God is imaged by the corporate body: note how in John 17 the unity of believers pictures the oneness of God the Father and God the Son. However, individuals in Scripture often image God precisely as they stand against the group, the crowd. Individuals, as we have seen, do bear the image of God (Genesis 9:6; 1 Corinthians 11:7; Colossians 3:10; James 3:9). There is not much value, I think, in such comparisons. God is one and many and is properly imaged both by groups and by individuals.
 
ifbteaparty said:
Boomer and I disagree on that verse. It says that in the image of God created He him. Male and female created he them. There is a DISTINCTION between the two. I Corinthians gives the SAME distinction and further explains the verse in Genesis. I respectfully disagree with him.

You are disagreeing with 2000 years of church understanding, the direct teaching of Paul, the example of Jesus, the truth of the gospel, and the clear wording of Genesis in order to make patriarchal, misogynistic statements in order to support your corrupted views that women are somehow inferior to men.
 
aleshanee said:
ifbteaparty said:
Boomer and I disagree on that verse. It says that in the image of God created He him. Male and female created he them. There is a DISTINCTION between the two. I Corinthians gives the SAME distinction and further explains the verse in Genesis. I respectfully disagree with him.


well.. you may respectfully disagree with boomer... . who is obviously your friend... ..  but the way you disagreed with others here was anything but respectful.. ...

but if you are correct about all this ....and boomer and the rest of us are wrong....  if that distinction in genesis means the woman taken from man was not in the image of God....  then the only man the Bible was talking about being created in the image of God was adam... not any other man who came after adam. .. . which were all produced from the union of both adam and eve together.. .. and physically taken from eve.... .. ...  so by your own method of interpreting that verse it seems you are saying that you are not created in the image of God either.. .nor was any other man since adam.. ... .  . only adam was.. . .


How have I been disrespectful to anyone on this forum? I don't even know who Boomer is, better yet most everyone else on this forum because we are anonymous. That's why I try not to take everything so personal, and that is why I don't call people names.
 
Has it become disrespectful to disagree with someone else's opinion? Why is it that as soon as someone disagrees with us we immediately get mad and call names? I tell someone to "gear down, big shifter" because they are going off on me because I think the Bible says something they don't agree with and I am the one who is disrespectful? The one who is called a slimy pig and all the other terms for being a bigot?

 
qwerty said:
Honey Badger said:
ifbteaparty said:
I am not defending Schaap in any way, shape, or form. I just want to give a different perspective on this. This "innocent" 17 year old young participated in this activity with a married man. Obviously, Jack the Deceiver coached her into it as evidence of the testimony of the court.

But I have my doubts this girl was an innocent girl who had never even touched another guy. It is obvious that this girl was very troubled. It is also obvious from Schaap's blasphemous last sermon that he was having conversations with many teenagers who were sexually active. It is my opinion that there are probably other girls he spent with "in the woods while walking with God" or at his cabin or at his home or at his office. If I were Pastor Wilkerson, I wouldn't bring a black light into that office!

Schaap has done extreme damage to this young woman, no doubt about it. But let's not jump on the media's bandwagon and act like this was a girl who was as clean as the wind driven snow. Neither the media nor any of us know anything about this young woman.

orly.jpg


I am getting a bit irritated by people who want to blame the girl or her parents...also irritated with people who think Schaap was caught on a technicality and didn't really break any laws. Look buddy, maybe you should write your congressmen and senators to get the laws changed so victims can share the blame, amen? The law is the law for a reason, like Judge Lozano said, to PROTECT CHILDREN!

You may want to step away from the Internet for awhile if differing opinions are so upsetting to you.

Sometimes, the tolerant, non judgemental people are only tolerant with those who agree with them!
 
[quote author=ifbteaparty]How have I been disrespectful to anyone on this forum? I don't even know who Boomer is, better yet most everyone else on this forum because we are anonymous. That's why I try not to take everything so personal, and that is why I don't call people names.[/quote]

You said women were less than human. That's pretty disrespectful in my opinion.
 
ifbteaparty said:
Boomer and I disagree on that verse. It says that in the image of God created He him. Male and female created he them. There is a DISTINCTION between the two. I Corinthians gives the SAME distinction and further explains the verse in Genesis. I respectfully disagree with him.

The distinction made between male and female in Genesis 1:27 is in reference to their sexes. The whole verse describes how God created Man(kind).
      1.  God created man(kind) - God created the human race beginning with Adam & Eve.
      2.  God created man(kind) in His own image.
      3.  When God created mankind in His own image, He created male and female (in His own image).

1 Corinthians 11:7 does not refute the clear evidence of Genesis 1:27 for the following reasons:
      1.  The verse states that the man is the image and glory of God, but that the woman is the glory of man. It does not say anything about who's image                     
              the woman is made in.
                    - Man is the IMAGE and glory of God, but woman is the _____________ glory of man. (Does not say image. That exclusion speaks volumes.)
      2.  The surrounding context does mention that the woman was made of and for the man (vv 8-9). This fact does not address what image the woman is
              made in. Some would say she is made in man's image because she was formed from Adam's rib, but that logic would lead one to conclude that Adam,
              who was formed from the dust of the ground, bears the image of dirt rather than God.
      3.  It is of the utmost importance to pay attention to what the Bible does say. It is equally important to notice what the Bible does not say.
              1 Corinthians 11 does not say that woman were not created in God's image.
 
aleshanee said:
ifbteaparty said:
aleshanee said:
ifbteaparty said:
Boomer and I disagree on that verse. It says that in the image of God created He him. Male and female created he them. There is a DISTINCTION between the two. I Corinthians gives the SAME distinction and further explains the verse in Genesis. I respectfully disagree with him.


well.. you may respectfully disagree with boomer... . who is obviously your friend... ..  but the way you disagreed with others here was anything but respectful.. ...

but if you are correct about all this ....and boomer and the rest of us are wrong....  if that distinction in genesis means the woman taken from man was not in the image of God....  then the only man the Bible was talking about being created in the image of God was adam... not any other man who came after adam. .. . which were all produced from the union of both adam and eve together.. .. and physically taken from eve.... .. ...  so by your own method of interpreting that verse it seems you are saying that you are not created in the image of God either.. .nor was any other man since adam.. ... .  . only adam was.. . .


How have I been disrespectful to anyone on this forum? I don't even know who Boomer is, better yet most everyone else on this forum because we are anonymous. That's why I try not to take everything so personal, and that is why I don't call people names.

by the way.. ..  do you have an answer for what i wrote concerning your theory of who is or who isn;t made in the image of God?..... ..  better yet..  can you explain how a male baby born today can be made in the image of God when the female mother he is taken from is not?.....  you said eve couldn;t be made after the image of God because she was taken from adam...  but adam was made in the image of God ... right?... ...  so how can any man who came after adam.. born of women ..be made in image of God if their mothers are not?.... .. ..  do you have an answer?... .. ...  because i would really like to hear it...... 

That is flawless hermeneutics ifbteaparty-style.  You get an A+.  8)
 
I absolutely agree with you.


Torrent v.2 said:
ifbteaparty said:
How many times do I have to tell you that I cannot stand Jack Schaap? I have been calling for his firing for years before this happened. I don't read his supporters, nor do I really know of any right now.

The media keeps saying "victim." People on blogs keep talking about this "poor girl." All I was saying was that while Schaap is a creeping piece of trash, she might not be as much of a victim as we think and we should not cast judgment on her either way.

You're kidding, right?  She was 16. he was 54, and highly powerful and experienced. She was hurt, and he was her pastor and school administrator. She implicitly trusted him. 


There is absolutely no fault that you can, in your wildest dreams, attach to her.

Jack Schaap is 100% at fault.

Does anyone else agree with me?
 
prophet said:
Not one word of this post is relevant, in light of the revealed transcripts.  Jude is written to warn us of these perverts, who sexualize the Gospel.  Cain, Balaam, Korah...that's the crowd Dr.Shaft runs with.  If you can read the 'as the angels ministered to Jesus in the Garden' line, and ever again consider Shaft to be anything other than a perverted, stalking, manipulative molester, corrupted through to the core...than don't you ever join the ministry!

Anishinabe

Agreed. Someone asked me a few months ago what I thought JS should do when he got out. I said then he ought never be allowed to pastor, or to teach in a Bible college again, but maybe he could preach somewhere, somehow. After reading the prosecution memo that contained those blasphemously manipulative letters I changed my mind. He should never be allowed to stand up in front of anybody with a Bible in his hand again - ever. He needs permanently muted from ever sharing his thoughts regarding Scripture.
 
Just John said:
And he was an absolute fool for ever counseling a female behind a closed door without the presence of another female. EVER!

For the life of me, I don't understand why more attention hasn't been paid to this. In fact, I think FBCH's whole approach to 'counseling' needs re-thought. The clear Scriptural implication is that a girl with these problems should be mentored by an older woman, let alone closeted for hours behind closed doors with her pastor dealing with sexual struggles.

Somebody needs to remind the HAC students and prospective pastors that 'counseling' is not even mentioned in the NT in relation to the role of the pastor. I'm not saying he shouldn't do any of it, but I am saying that it shouldn't take near the precedence as it has grown to take in that system over the last 30 years.
 
Tom Brennan said:
Just John said:
And he was an absolute fool for ever counseling a female behind a closed door without the presence of another female. EVER!

For the life of me, I don't understand why more attention hasn't been paid to this. In fact, I think FBCH's whole approach to 'counseling' needs re-thought. The clear Scriptural implication is that a girl with these problems should be mentored by an older woman, let alone closeted for hours behind closed doors with her pastor dealing with sexual struggles.

Somebody needs to remind the HAC students and prospective pastors that 'counseling' is not even mentioned in the NT in relation to the role of the pastor. I'm not saying he shouldn't do any of it, but I am saying that it shouldn't take near the precedence as it has grown to take in that system over the last 30 years.

If you read the Streeter's blog, they say that people told him about the rule they had about no counseling for more than 1/2 hour with a female, and he said "I made that rule, I can break it."
 
BALAAM said:
Okay here is a little snapshot into this girls life and upbringing. Up until the very last Sunday night that Schaap preached while all this was going on, he was preaching and telling parents, "You need to buy into me!"

Now this seemingly innocent little statement has been burned into this girl's head, her parent's heads, and most of the people's head in fbch, including the bobble heads that sat behind him on the platform. While any outsider with a normal upbringing can look and say that she should have just said no, they have no idea of the subtle pressure from her pastor, teachers, youth directors, school camp preachers, youth revival preachers, school principal and most other people she had been taught to respect to follow the pastor's leading and direction WITHOUT QUESTION. I guarantee you that she never one time heard that she should go to the Bible and go to God for direction and follow His leading, it was always the MOG without question.

...which is why, amongst other reasons, there is some corporate responsibility in all of this, and also why there needs to be an entire change in top level staff in order to effect institutional cultural change.
 
Tom Brennan said:
BALAAM said:
Okay here is a little snapshot into this girls life and upbringing. Up until the very last Sunday night that Schaap preached while all this was going on, he was preaching and telling parents, "You need to buy into me!"

Now this seemingly innocent little statement has been burned into this girl's head, her parent's heads, and most of the people's head in fbch, including the bobble heads that sat behind him on the platform. While any outsider with a normal upbringing can look and say that she should have just said no, they have no idea of the subtle pressure from her pastor, teachers, youth directors, school camp preachers, youth revival preachers, school principal and most other people she had been taught to respect to follow the pastor's leading and direction WITHOUT QUESTION. I guarantee you that she never one time heard that she should go to the Bible and go to God for direction and follow His leading, it was always the MOG without question.

...which is why, amongst other reasons, there is some corporate responsibility in all of this, and also why there needs to be an entire change in top level staff in order to effect institutional cultural change.

I agree. There needs to be some men with some spiritual backbone in leadership there.
 
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