Today's Top News....

[AnkleBone]

"Dave Hyles should not have been allowed into the church at all. He has walked unworthy of any profession of Christ he ever made. According to the Bible, he should not have been allowed into the church."

"Could you give us a Bible chapter & verse for that type of church?"


1 Corinthians 5:11 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Even though he doesn't know how to do a proper quote, I think he's got a good one there, Maynard, even if he failed to use the King's English.

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."

Of course, this would mean the church leadership would have to admit he was guilty of such sin.

Good job, earthling.

I have NO PROBLEM with a church exercising Scriptural discipline. But that is not what I understood the ankle guy to say. It hit me that he thought that there should be some kind of guards at the doors to keep the unwanted SINNERS out.

Besides, to my knowledge to this day FBCH had not brought Davey-boy to task over his many act of immorality.

In the New Testament, elders who fell into gross sin were identified before the entire church, rebuked, and removed from office. Unrepentant elders were expelled from Christianity and their names were known. Christians were not even allowed to eat with them. EVERYBODY knew who had raped children, had sex with their father's wife, engaged in brawling, etc. and NOBODY would let them into Christian fellowship. Very unlike the IFB, which immediately covers such events with a heavy curtain of secrecy and even leaks misinformation (remember the rumor that Jack Schaap was going to be released on medical leave?) to cover up for pastoral child molesters.

 

[Norefund]

I wasn't there but I heard the sermon later. My impression differed from yours. I remember Jack Hyles preaching the sermon because he had become aware of the possibility that pamphlets would be circulated at Pastor's School showing the lewd ad that Dave Hyles had taken out in a swinger's club magazine. Yes, Jack Hyles did say he had sent Dave away but I don't recall him being anywhere near specific about Dave's sins. I do remember him using the occasion to bash Vic Nischik and George Godfrey again. I also remember him saying something to the effect of sending Dave away was breaking his and Mrs. Hyles hearts. I get that but the way he kind of (in my opinion) tearfully said it while instantly recovering to slam Vic Nischik sounded rehearsed and fake to me. Just my impression.

also, using this phrase "But her and her ilk "

says quite a bit about you, too.

Of course, this would mean the church leadership would have to admit he was guilty of such sin.

Really?  How many times and in what form do you require to understand that the church leadership for years has not only admitted the sin but preached about the sin by name, by position, by offender and even Brother Hyles formally from the pulpit has not only publicly admitted such but directly spoke on a Sunday Night before PS of March of 1991 when I was there but was not a church member that DH had horribly sinned and the membership  was to have no contact with him any further.  Multiple repeated attempts were made by leadership to contact those who wish to prop him back up in ministry to warn them about not doing it. 

The initial reactions and not disciplining him were absolutely wrong.  It created a mess.  On both sides.  Bro Wilkerson did biblically what he was to do in dealing with church discipline with JER.  But her and her ilk did not want to use biblical methods to resolve this issue.  Her recollections in this "story" have pieces of truth enough to get one to believe it was true but the facts of the matter that we who were there at the time know the truth of the matter and others of us also know the truth of continued sin that led to the demise of a marriage and missionary ministry. But we dare not think for a moment that those matters should be brought to church discipline now do we.  It doesn't fit the #MeToo narrative.  RED AWAY Snowflakes!  You will see someday the truth.

 

[TidesofTruth]

also, using this phrase "But her and her ilk "

says quite a bit about you, too.

Meaning Of the same type, class, or kind as someone and was not just painting with a broad brush.  I was speaking of the group specifically who are involved with this issue involving DH and JER.

Hardly pejorative and not nearly in the same class of conversation as using profanity.  Oh I know it is also an animal but in polite society it has always been considered profanity. 

 

[TidesofTruth]

I wasn't there but I heard the sermon later. My impression differed from yours. I remember Jack Hyles preaching the sermon because he had become aware of the possibility that pamphlets would be circulated at Pastor's School showing the lewd ad that Dave Hyles had taken out in a swinger's club magazine. Yes, Jack Hyles did say he had sent Dave away but I don't recall him being anywhere near specific about Dave's sins. I do remember him using the occasion to bash Vic Nischik and George Godfrey again. I also remember him saying something to the effect of sending Dave away was breaking his and Mrs. Hyles hearts. I get that but the way he kind of (in my opinion) tearfully said it while instantly recovering to slam Vic Nischik sounded rehearsed and fake to me. Just my impression.

Well I wasn't much a fan of FBC at the time so I think I would have been quite negative in my impression had it struck me as something fake.  I don't doubt that the pressure of DHs sin becoming public put pressure on JH to do something.  I wasn't stating motivation.  I was stating what I heard.  And the direct statements to have nothing to do with DH including phone calls or  any contact was part of what was stated.  Again JH nor the deacon board get no pass from me about their lack of biblical obedience to church discipline.  I have been one of the loudest to call for it within FBC.  However now the whole issue is wrecked.  There is no standing to discipline.  There is no real justice for the victim.  There is no restoration for the sinner. And those who would be made to "pay" which is really what this is all about were not guilty of the crime here.

 

[Norefund]

Agreed. There is no doubt in any rational persons mind that this was handled incorrectly in every way possible.

Was this said during the sermon we are discussing?

"And the direct statements to have nothing to do with DH including phone calls or  any contact was part of what was stated."

I don't recall hearing that part. Then again, it was quite sometime ago. If anyone has a link to that sermon, feel free to provide it.

I wasn't there but I heard the sermon later. My impression differed from yours. I remember Jack Hyles preaching the sermon because he had become aware of the possibility that pamphlets would be circulated at Pastor's School showing the lewd ad that Dave Hyles had taken out in a swinger's club magazine. Yes, Jack Hyles did say he had sent Dave away but I don't recall him being anywhere near specific about Dave's sins. I do remember him using the occasion to bash Vic Nischik and George Godfrey again. I also remember him saying something to the effect of sending Dave away was breaking his and Mrs. Hyles hearts. I get that but the way he kind of (in my opinion) tearfully said it while instantly recovering to slam Vic Nischik sounded rehearsed and fake to me. Just my impression.

Well I wasn't much a fan of FBC at the time so I think I would have been quite negative in my impression had it struck me as something fake.  I don't doubt that the pressure of DHs sin becoming public put pressure on JH to do something.  I wasn't stating motivation.  I was stating what I heard.  And the direct statements to have nothing to do with DH including phone calls or  any contact was part of what was stated.  Again JH nor the deacon board get no pass from me about their lack of biblical obedience to church discipline.  I have been one of the loudest to call for it within FBC.  However now the whole issue is wrecked.  There is no standing to discipline.  There is no real justice for the victim.  There is no restoration for the sinner. And those who would be made to "pay" which is really what this is all about were not guilty of the crime here.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

In a sermon entitled "Some On Broken Pieces" JH spoke of how Dave had been punished, was not allowed to have his former position and refused to yield himself to a repentant resotration.  He spoke of how it broke his heart and was the worst path to follow.  The sermon asked young people to not act like Dave.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Finally got around to reading page 3 and 4 of the article.  I did not watch any of the videos.  The quotes and summary statements were interesting.  Many of the quotes were simply pointing out the oddities of the IFB, not a system of abuse.  Many of the quotes about the abuser and feelings after abuse are common among all people who are abused.  I also read from many who received "counsel" the same counsel that is suggested by many different Christian counseling organizations of various denominations.  Short snippets are quoted without the whole context of the counsel.  Some of them are obviously wrong (Don't tell any authority), while some of them might have been part of good counsel (you need to live with a willingness to forgive).  I don't see how those are particular to the IFB.  I am saddened that these people were hurt in IFB churches.

 

[Norefund]

Hey, we can almost always count on Dave Hyles to get the forum members posting again.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Hey, we can almost always count on Dave Hyles to get the forum members posting again.

True Dat!

Maybe some of the others will come back and begin posting on other threads also.

 

[Vince Massi]

I found a recording of "Some on Broken Pieces" at http://jackhyles.us/?p=38

Jack explained that if a Godly Christian shipwrecks himself, he can still serve God as a broken piece of the ship. Before we go any farther, Dave Hyles was not a Godly Christian--long before he got caught. Yes, a born again saint who shipwrecks himself can later serve God in a smaller capacity. But Galatians 5:19-21 tells us clearly that Dave Hyles was not a born again saint.

Jack tried to get Dave to give up trying to re-enter the pastorate, and to get a bus route instead. Dave refused at first, and then Jack praised him because he finally did agree to serve God in a smaller capacity. No he didn't. Dave continued his immorality as he failed one leadership position after another. The positions he failed at were smaller than his previous positions but they were still leadership positions.

Most (literally) of the first half of the sermon dealt with Jack's compassion for his people. But he said nothing about how he allowed Jim Vineyard to slander students who objected to the sins of Vineyard's Gangsters. Nor did he say anything about how HAC falsified grades, records, and awards to attack those students.

Jack never dealt with the sufferings of the victims of Dave's sins, and he did not retract the attacks on Christians who objected to Dave's sins and the church's cover-up.

 

[Norefund]

I also listened to that sermon after BC posted the reference. My take was he spent the first half of the sermon humble-bragging on himself - (paraphrasing)  "I never like the spotlight" "No one cares for his people like I do" "Jim Vineyard said I do more for my people than anyone in history" "If young people would just listen to me and do everything I say..."

He also told a story about a a teen/young man named Todd that fell into sin and was in a bad way . Todd figured that the only person who loved him was Brother Hyles so he drove his motorcycle to see JH. Todd looked homeless and in bad health so "I bought him a suit of clothes" cuz, you know, that's what every depressed, possibly addicted, homeless person needs. And then, Todd won one soul to Christ before committing suicide. The cynic in me thinks there was another motive for telling this story. Todd's relatively prominent family had left the church and that was public knowledge. Their leaving was talked about at FBC in harsh terms - they are malcontents, their children will suffer, etc. I think it's possible that JH was taking a not so subtle slap at that family by using their tragedy as a sermon illustration. Again, just my opinion.

For those who want to just hear the Dave stuff, it's the last 5 minutes of the sermon.

I found a recording of "Some on Broken Pieces" at http://jackhyles.us/?p=38

Jack explained that if a Godly Christian shipwrecks himself, he can still serve God as a broken piece of the ship. Before we go any farther, Dave Hyles was not a Godly Christian--long before he got caught. Yes, a born again saint who shipwrecks himself can later serve God in a smaller capacity. But Galatians 5:19-21 tells us clearly that Dave Hyles was not a born again saint.

Jack tried to get Dave to give up trying to re-enter the pastorate, and to get a bus route instead. Dave refused at first, and then Jack praised him because he finally did agree to serve God in a smaller capacity. No he didn't. Dave continued his immorality as he failed one leadership position after another. The positions he failed at were smaller than his previous positions but they were still leadership positions.

Most (literally) of the first half of the sermon dealt with Jack's compassion for his people. But he said nothing about how he allowed Jim Vineyard to slander students who objected to the sins of Vineyard's Gangsters. Nor did he say anything about how HAC falsified grades, records, and awards to attack those students.

Jack never dealt with the sufferings of the victims of Dave's sins, and he did not retract the attacks on Christians who objected to Dave's sins and the church's cover-up.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Was Dave Hyles guilty of Statutory Rape with Joy?  I think without a doubt.
Did he "hold her down..." -  I have my doubts, but who knows.
Did Joy have a reputation @ HAC for being.... loose?  Definitely

Is it possible that the abuse by DH was the catalyst for JER's "being loose" later?

I know this is very common. Not having been subjected to abuse myself, I cannot speak firsthand, fortunately.  I can, however, relate the story of a young lady who was abused as a pre-teen and then led a very loose life and became a mother at the age of 14.

 

[Norefund]

I guess I don't understand why her reputation after or even during the Dave stuff is relevant.  Whether she was a willing participant with Dave is also only slightly relevant. She was underage and he was in a position of authority.

Allegedly, Jack Schaap's victim had a reputation and was also a willing participant. Should we be disparaging her? Of course not.

Was Dave Hyles guilty of Statutory Rape with Joy?  I think without a doubt.
Did he "hold her down..." -  I have my doubts, but who knows.
Did Joy have a reputation @ HAC for being.... loose?  Definitely

Is it possible that the abuse by DH was the catalyst for JER's "being loose" later?

I know this is very common. Not having been subjected to abuse myself, I cannot speak firsthand, fortunately.  I can, however, relate the story of a young lady who was abused as a pre-teen and then led a very loose life and became a mother at the age of 14.

 

[Sherryh]

Who said Joy was loose in high school?  Really!!  Let me talk to her friends...because they were not 100%

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Who said Joy was loose in high school?  Really!!  Let me talk to her friends...because they were not 100%

I do not know her, personally, so I cannot comment on her reputation. It was mentioned above by WESLEY:

Did Joy have a reputation @ HAC for being.... loose?  Definitely

which seems to indicate that he was speaking of her college years.

 

[Sherryh]

Wesley who is the everyone that knew Joy was loose in high school or college? That is wrong!!

 

[TidesofTruth]

I guess I don't understand why her reputation after or even during the Dave stuff is relevant.  Whether she was a willing participant with Dave is also only slightly relevant. She was underage and he was in a position of authority.

Allegedly, Jack Schaap's victim had a reputation and was also a willing participant. Should we be disparaging her? Of course not.

Was Dave Hyles guilty of Statutory Rape with Joy?  I think without a doubt.
Did he "hold her down..." -  I have my doubts, but who knows.
Did Joy have a reputation @ HAC for being.... loose?  Definitely

Is it possible that the abuse by DH was the catalyst for JER's "being loose" later?

I know this is very common. Not having been subjected to abuse myself, I cannot speak firsthand, fortunately.  I can, however, relate the story of a young lady who was abused as a pre-teen and then led a very loose life and became a mother at the age of 14.

Its not relevant to the statutory rape whatsoever - Not in the slightest.  A man who has reached majority age has a full responsibility to ensure the virtue of each and every woman he has any contact with.  And that is all the more important for any man in a position of authority and then even more so if he claims he is a believer and then doubling down again if he is in a position of authority in a spiritual role.

JERs responsibility was to "cry out" with some urgency according to the Word of God.

 

[AnkleBone]

https://www.star-telegram.com/living/religion/article223132890.html

Wha-Woe!

Lawsuits and criminal investigations are starting
https://www.star-telegram.com/living/religion/article223155890.html

And this isn't the last media exposure either. Something big is coming from cable in January

 

[Binaca Chugger]

https://www.star-telegram.com/living/religion/article223132890.html

Wha-Woe!

Lawsuits and criminal investigations are starting
https://www.star-telegram.com/living/religion/article223155890.html

And this isn't the last media exposure either. Something big is coming from cable in January

FWIW:
The report you linked claims again of other churches and IFB pastors who are speaking out against this sin.  Again, you are guilty of bearing false witness.  I expect that you will immediately repent of violating the ninth commandment and make this right with every person you have sinned against.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

I guess I don't understand why her reputation after or even during the Dave stuff is relevant.  Whether she was a willing participant with Dave is also only slightly relevant. She was underage and he was in a position of authority.

Allegedly, Jack Schaap's victim had a reputation and was also a willing participant. Should we be disparaging her? Of course not.

Was Dave Hyles guilty of Statutory Rape with Joy?  I think without a doubt.
Did he "hold her down..." -  I have my doubts, but who knows.
Did Joy have a reputation @ HAC for being.... loose?  Definitely

Is it possible that the abuse by DH was the catalyst for JER's "being loose" later?

I know this is very common. Not having been subjected to abuse myself, I cannot speak firsthand, fortunately.  I can, however, relate the story of a young lady who was abused as a pre-teen and then led a very loose life and became a mother at the age of 14.

Its not relevant to the statutory rape whatsoever - Not in the slightest.  A man who has reached majority age has a full responsibility to ensure the virtue of each and every woman he has any contact with.  And that is all the more important for any man in a position of authority and then even more so if he claims he is a believer and then doubling down again if he is in a position of authority in a spiritual role.

JERs responsibility was to "cry out" with some urgency according to the Word of God.

So, your position is that the statutory rape of a minor had no bearing whatsoever on her future actions as a young adult? Are you saying that she bears some of the responsibility for the actions of her attacker?