TULIP: The good, bad and ugly

[Binaca Chugger]

So you are an Arminian except for the part that would actually demand the Jesus be accepted as Lord.

1-2-3, pray after me then a continued life of depravity because once saved, always saved.

Of course not!  It should be: 1-2-3-4-5-6, pray.  This allows them to pray on point 7, which represents the perfection of salvation and thus brings perfection to their life. 

;D

 

[Binaca Chugger]

So you are an Arminian except for the part that would actually demand the Jesus be accepted as Lord.

1-2-3, pray after me then a continued life of depravity because once saved, always saved.

Maybe you missed the part where I talked about the need for personal repentance and faith.  I believe in soul winning, or faith sharing or Gospel giving (Whatever you want to call it).  I do not believe a Christian should be a salesman.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

The prevailing assumptions of those who think they know what other believers are motivated by? Or do you know of a church in your region of the world that openly preaches and teaches a "lassiez faire approach" to evangelism?  My guess is that you have been spoon fed this nonsense for so long that it has become "truth".

I have spoken with the laypeople and the pastors.  I have asked them questions, watched their methods and listened to their approach.  They believe in giving the Gospel....to someone who visits the church, asks for a pastoral visit and then asks about eternity.  This is the prevailing thought pattern for most churches in my region.  Even the majority of IFB laypeople will not share the Gospel with anyone this month.  They may state their willingness, but are not really willing.  If the Kingdom of God is going to be advanced in this world, we must be about our Father's business.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

With one shot at this, I want to speak to the positives of evangelism vs the lassiez faire approach that is the result of predestination.

And this is where to be found?

This is the prevailing thought in my region of the world.

What you consider "laissez faire" could simply be your perception of this thing called "faith".  Tell the truth, and have faith that if God wants to grow the seed, he will.  No need to pressure someone into praying the sinner's prayer.

I understand the need for wisdom, tact and patience in sharing our faith with others.  I understand the need to allow an individual to make a personal decision.  I also understand the need to go preach the Gospel. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

You're the one that believe God chose you regardless of your own action.

... and this is controversial, how?

I go a step further... He chose me regardless of anything I did or am.

"Out of HIS good pleasure" not because I had some worthy action.

Your need for an action, to be chosen, undermines the idea of being chosen and eternally secure. He keeps me regardless of my actions, because He chose me regardless of my actions.

This is the challenge between the two views, and where I think I am in the middle, for I believe both:

I am not worthy of salvation.  I can do nothing to affect God's love for me, regardless of ANYTHING that I did or am.  He chose to offer me redemption out of HIS good pleasure, not because of my worthy action. 

However, I must CHOOSE to repent and believe.  This must be my personal choice.  To deny this need of personal repentance and faith is to deny the words of Christ in Mark 1:15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

You're the one that believe God chose you regardless of your own action.

... and this is controversial, how?

I go a step further... He chose me regardless of anything I did or am.

"Out of HIS good pleasure" not because I had some worthy action.

Your need for an action, to be chosen, undermines the idea of being chosen and eternally secure. He keeps me regardless of my actions, because He chose me regardless of my actions.

How does this approach not deny the need for repentance and faith?

Because his called out - the elect or "chosen" - will repent and have faith.

Yet, this is a personal decision.  Which, contradicts the whole Irresistible Grace and Limited Atonement.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I think the whole Arminian/Calvinist debate is only possible based on a really shallow definition of salvation.

Please continue.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I identify as mostly Calvinist. I see no reason to evangelize.
What am I missing? (I.e. why did staunch Calvinists throughout history evangelize?)

How could this not be the result of TULIP?  Of course, it contradicts the Great Commission, but is the result of the TULIP.

 

[rsc2a]

You're the one that believe God chose you regardless of your own action.

... and this is controversial, how?

I go a step further... He chose me regardless of anything I did or am.

"Out of HIS good pleasure" not because I had some worthy action.

Your need for an action, to be chosen, undermines the idea of being chosen and eternally secure. He keeps me regardless of my actions, because He chose me regardless of my actions.

How does this approach not deny the need for repentance and faith?

Because his called out - the elect or "chosen" - will repent and have faith.

Yet, this is a personal decision.  Which, contradicts the whole Irresistible Grace and Limited Atonement.

If I offer my neighbor's dog bacon, the dog will choose to eat. Was, from my perspective, the choice inevitable? Sure...but the dog still made a choice.

 

[rsc2a]

I think the whole Arminian/Calvinist debate is only possible based on a really shallow definition of salvation.

Please continue.

If salvation is something that happens over a lifetime...

If it is something that happened prior to my birth and will continue on after my death...

If it is something whereby I participate in the good works in Christ I have been given...

If Hell is a reality...

If God is reconciling all things..

...the whole Calvinism/Arminianism thing seems to fall apart pretty quickly.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I believe on another thread, it was pointed out that many people who have been noted as key components to revivals and great works were Calvinists.  Some have stated here that they are Calvinists and believe in evangelism, while others have claimed Calvinism and denied evangelism.  This is an interesting fact and one that bears further examination. 

There seems to be some similarity here to the Jehovah's Witness, who believe only a predetermined number will enter heaven, so they strive to be one of the number.  The Calvinists believe the saved are already chosen, and each believe that they are the chosen.  Some Calvinists believes nothing he does can affect another's status as chosen or rejected, yet believe in evangelism.  How do these two ideals not oppose each other?

 

[Binaca Chugger]

You're the one that believe God chose you regardless of your own action.

... and this is controversial, how?

I go a step further... He chose me regardless of anything I did or am.

"Out of HIS good pleasure" not because I had some worthy action.

Your need for an action, to be chosen, undermines the idea of being chosen and eternally secure. He keeps me regardless of my actions, because He chose me regardless of my actions.

How does this approach not deny the need for repentance and faith?

Because his called out - the elect or "chosen" - will repent and have faith.

Yet, this is a personal decision.  Which, contradicts the whole Irresistible Grace and Limited Atonement.

If I offer my neighbor's dog bacon, the dog will choose to eat. Was, from my perspective, the choice inevitable? Sure...but the dog still made a choice.

I have argued this point very similarly.  Years ago, my wife bought a beautiful dress for our baby girl that she could wear for a special occasion years later.  My wife prepared a gown for my daughter and knew that she would one day wear the beautiful dress.  As my daughter grew, she did choose to wear that dress on a special occasion.

 

[FSSL]

Your best argument is "do it 'cause it feels good"? Eh, I can find other things to do that feel good and actually matter.

As for "go and make disciples", perhaps that means something else that would not be contradictory to the rest of the Bible that teaches that  God saves whosoever He will.

Well good... enjoy your life.

Only a troll would dismiss the reality of joy in the evangel, derived from obedience and having "beautiful feet."

 

[FSSL]

There seems to be some similarity here to the Jehovah's Witness, who believe only a predetermined number will enter heaven, so they strive to be one of the number.  The Calvinists believe the saved are already chosen, and each believe that they are the chosen.  Some Calvinists believes nothing he does can affect another's status as chosen or rejected, yet believe in evangelism.  How do these two ideals not oppose each other?

Two conflicting issues? You have multiple issues in that paragraph and they are different, altogether.

JWs? Nice try... but the are not even closely associated with the biblical idea of God's election to salvation.

All  Calvinists believe that believers were chosen in eternity past.

The Calvinist does believe God is the One who regenerates fallen man. The Calvinist prays, "God, please save my friend!"

How does the Arminian pray for the salvation or others?

 

[praise_yeshua]

You're the one that believe God chose you regardless of your own action.

... and this is controversial, how?

I go a step further... He chose me regardless of anything I did or am.

"Out of HIS good pleasure" not because I had some worthy action.

Your need for an action, to be chosen, undermines the idea of being chosen and eternally secure. He keeps me regardless of my actions, because He chose me regardless of my actions.

Why do you continually refuse to deal with everything I wrote? This is another dishonest Calvinist tactic.

I said clearly that God chose Himself in chosing His Son. I has nothing to do with and have never had anything to do with you.

However, you continuely  make it about yourself. You igniore the fact that you believe that God chose you and rejected others just like you. You refuse to acknowledge this presents a scenario where you are better choice than those rejected.

I simply accepted something freely offered to all. Something I could not do myself. How do you even begin to believe this places focus on something I did resulting in my salvation?

 

[FSSL]

Why do you continually refuse to deal with everything I wrote? This is another dishonest Calvinist tactic.

Because I do not have time to address every single point you raise. I just look for the main point and deal with that.

However, you continuely  make it about yourself.

No. I am not the one who says my election involves an action of accepting.

you igniore the fact that you believe that God chose you and rejected others just like you. You refuse to acknowledge this presents a scenario where you are better choice than those rejected.

This was not brought up. In fact, your view of Calvinism is strange.

I simply accepted something freely offered to all. Something I could not do myself. How do you even begin to believe this places focus on something I did resulting in my salvation?

If you cannot "simply accept" by yourself, then what happened? Prevenient grace or regeneration preceding grace?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I simply accepted something freely offered to all. Something I could not do myself. How do you even begin to believe this places focus on something I did resulting in my salvation?

What couldn't you do yourself?  Accept?  Save yourself? 

Let me ask you this - if you simply accepted something freely offered to all, then why did you accept it, but your neighbor didn't?  What's different about you that you would make the right decision, but he'd make the wrong one? 

 

[subllibrm]

Your best argument is "do it 'cause it feels good"? Eh, I can find other things to do that feel good and actually matter.

As for "go and make disciples", perhaps that means something else that would not be contradictory to the rest of the Bible that teaches that  God saves whosoever He will.

I don't "do it" because it feels good (although there is joy in doing so). I do it because I am commanded to. When I share the gospel it glorifies God and Christ and reminds me of what a great Savior I have each time I share the story. Whether the hearer responds or not has no bearing upon these things.

 

[subllibrm]

I believe on another thread, it was pointed out that many people who have been noted as key components to revivals and great works were Calvinists.  Some have stated here that they are Calvinists and believe in evangelism, while others have claimed Calvinism and denied evangelism.  This is an interesting fact and one that bears further examination. 

There seems to be some similarity here to the Jehovah's Witness, who believe only a predetermined number will enter heaven, so they strive to be one of the number.  The Calvinists believe the saved are already chosen, and each believe that they are the chosen.  Some Calvinists believes nothing he does can affect another's status as chosen or rejected, yet believe in evangelism.  How do these two ideals not oppose each other?

All of which proves that "Calvinism" is about as useless as a descriptive as CCM. Both become meaningless as they are used by different people to describe entirely different things.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

There seems to be some similarity here to the Jehovah's Witness, who believe only a predetermined number will enter heaven, so they strive to be one of the number.  The Calvinists believe the saved are already chosen, and each believe that they are the chosen.  Some Calvinists believes nothing he does can affect another's status as chosen or rejected, yet believe in evangelism.  How do these two ideals not oppose each other?

Two conflicting issues? You have multiple issues in that paragraph and they are different, altogether.

JWs? Nice try... but the are not even closely associated with the biblical idea of God's election to salvation.

Okay.  My post was not well written.  Let me try again with that comparison.  The JW believes only a certain number will get into heaven, which number as already been met.  Yet, he witnesses - Why?  The Calvinist believes that the chosen have already been predetermined and there is nothing anyone or anything can do to change it, including their witnessing.  Yet, they witness - Why?

All  Calvinists believe that believers were chosen in eternity past.

The Calvinist does believe God is the One who regenerates fallen man. The Calvinist prays, "God, please save my friend!"

How does the Arminian pray for the salvation or others?

Why would he pray for God to save his friend, if it was determined in eternity past?

I pray that God would continue to soften their hearts and impress upon the unbeliever their need for repentance and faith in Christ by orchestrating all of the events in their life to bring them to a point of realization of their need.  This brokenness may come through the realization of love or brokenness  I pray that God would allow a Christian the right opportunity with wisdom of words to show the unbeliever their need for Christ.