What Is A Standard?

[Smellin Coffee]

So standards are things that will vary depending on the immediate circumstances one finds himself.

Unless it is a Biblical standard which does not change.

Yes, for by Grace are ye saved, not of works least any man should boast. Always save by Grace. Never changes.

Exactly!  If I went to India and they said I needed to pray to a wooden calf to go to Heaven, I would not, regardless of their custom.

I am NOT stating that "standard = truth" but rather "standards = behavior based on the circumstances". A Christian would not pray to the wooden calf because he is still living by his Christian standard. Standards can collide as you have illustrated. But a Jew who is not a Christian would have come to the same conclusion as you that praying to the wooden calf wouldn't save him, even though his standard would differ from yours.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So standards are things that will vary depending on the immediate circumstances one finds himself.

Unless it is a Biblical standard which does not change.

That would be considered the 'religious culture'. I don't know about the Koran but I'm sure there are people who create standards from them, claiming them to be of God.

The issue I have about setting up 'Biblical standards' is not the idea of there being an absolute, but rather we create standards out of our relative position of choice. Unless one is a psychopath, I find it hard to believe that Christian and non-Christian alike would consider "Do not murder" to be a biblical standard by which we all should live. But there is a caveat where we relatively determine what 'murder' really is. Some would say abortion is murder. Some would say war is murder. Some would say capital punishment is murder. All have basis within the Bible and involving 'biblical standard'.

So it isn't as cut-and-dried as stating "Biblical standard does not change." It probably doesn't but our perception and interpretation of how that plays out can change.

That's why this verse is so important:


1 Corinthians 2:14

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So Christians who believe in their good works, who love and follow Jesus with all their might and love God with all their hearts, believe the Bible and try to live it, yet come to a conclusion of works instead of faith alone...are you suggesting that their ideal of salvation is because they do not 'receive the things of the Spirit of God"?

...additional thought...

Better yet to my point: If a man believes capital punishment is murder, is he not 'receiving the things of the Spirit of God'?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So standards are things that will vary depending on the immediate circumstances one finds himself.

Unless it is a Biblical standard which does not change.

Yes, for by Grace are ye saved, not of works least any man should boast. Always save by Grace. Never changes.

"Repent and be baptized for the remission of sin."

This also can be deemed by some as a "Biblical standard".

 

[RAIDER]

That's why this verse is so important:


1 Corinthians 2:14

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So Christians who believe in their good works, who love and follow Jesus with all their might and love God with all their hearts, believe the Bible and try to live it, yet come to a conclusion of works instead of faith alone...are you suggesting that their ideal of salvation is because they do not 'receive the things of the Spirit of God"?

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

 

[prophet]

Standards have separated Christians, Churches and Movements not only from the word, but also from each other.  Here is the question for this thread:  What is a standard?  I am not looking for a list of your standards, I am looking for what defines a standard.  How should one choose his standards?  How should they be taught to others?

I think standards are much more meaningful than simply a list of do's and don'ts.  How would you define a standard to a new convert and begin teaching them to have standards in their life?

A "standard" is a flag which is carried into battle.  It identifies those under it, to everyone else.
We have but one standard, as followers of Christ, and that is : Him.
Nowhere were we ever told to make ourselves identifiable as His, by any other means, but than by loving one another.
So, if we are to have a standard, in the NT Church, it can only be to Love one another.

Earnestly Contend

 

[rsc2a]

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

Don't like the book of James much?

 

[RAIDER]

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

Don't like the book of James much?

Your works show that you are a Christian.  Your good works do not get you to Heaven.  Come on, even you aren't that stupid.

 

[rsc2a]

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

Don't like the book of James much?

Your works show that you are a Christian.  Your good works do not get you to Heaven.  Come on, even you aren't that stupid.

Both/and, not either/or.

 

[RAIDER]

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

Don't like the book of James much?

Your works show that you are a Christian.  Your good works do not get you to Heaven.  Come on, even you aren't that stupid.

Both/and, not either/or.

So if you are sharing the plan of salvation with someone you tell them that they need to be saved by grace through faith plus works???

 

[rsc2a]

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

Don't like the book of James much?

Your works show that you are a Christian.  Your good works do not get you to Heaven.  Come on, even you aren't that stupid.

Both/and, not either/or.

So if you are sharing the plan of salvation with someone you tell them that they need to be saved by grace through faith plus works???

I tell them they need to follow Jesus.

 

[RAIDER]

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

Don't like the book of James much?

Your works show that you are a Christian.  Your good works do not get you to Heaven.  Come on, even you aren't that stupid.

Both/and, not either/or.

So if you are sharing the plan of salvation with someone you tell them that they need to be saved by grace through faith plus works???

I tell them they need to follow Jesus.

You didn't answer the question.

 

[rsc2a]

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

Don't like the book of James much?

Your works show that you are a Christian.  Your good works do not get you to Heaven.  Come on, even you aren't that stupid.

Both/and, not either/or.

So if you are sharing the plan of salvation with someone you tell them that they need to be saved by grace through faith plus works???

I tell them they need to follow Jesus.

You didn't answer the question.

There wasn't a question.

 

[RAIDER]

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

Don't like the book of James much?

Your works show that you are a Christian.  Your good works do not get you to Heaven.  Come on, even you aren't that stupid.

Both/and, not either/or.

So if you are sharing the plan of salvation with someone you tell them that they need to be saved by grace through faith plus works???

I tell them they need to follow Jesus.

You didn't answer the question.

There wasn't a question.

Here you go again - So if you are sharing the plan of salvation with someone you tell them that they need to be saved by grace through faith plus works???

 

[rsc2a]

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

Don't like the book of James much?

Your works show that you are a Christian.  Your good works do not get you to Heaven.  Come on, even you aren't that stupid.

Both/and, not either/or.

So if you are sharing the plan of salvation with someone you tell them that they need to be saved by grace through faith plus works???

I tell them they need to follow Jesus.

You didn't answer the question.

There wasn't a question.

Here you go again - So if you are sharing the plan of salvation with someone you tell them that they need to be saved by grace through faith plus works???

If you say so.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

That's why this verse is so important:


1 Corinthians 2:14

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So Christians who believe in their good works, who love and follow Jesus with all their might and love God with all their hearts, believe the Bible and try to live it, yet come to a conclusion of works instead of faith alone...are you suggesting that their ideal of salvation is because they do not 'receive the things of the Spirit of God"?

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

Would one be wrong holding to the 'Biblical standard' of "Repent AND be baptized for the remission of sins"?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

Don't like the book of James much?

Your works show that you are a Christian.  Your good works do not get you to Heaven.  Come on, even you aren't that stupid.

Both/and, not either/or.

So if you are sharing the plan of salvation with someone you tell them that they need to be saved by grace through faith plus works???

I tell them they need to follow Jesus.

You didn't answer the question.

Actually he did answer it. To detail it better:

1. Point them to Jesus.

2. Encourage them to obey Him in all things.

God either left us all we needed to know, preserved through the recorded teachings of Christ or He didn't. I believe He did. Hence, Jesus holds the 'message of salvation' not Pauline letters (though some could reasonably argue both). 

 

[Bruh]

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

Don't like the book of James much?

Your works show that you are a Christian.  Your good works do not get you to Heaven.  Come on, even you aren't that stupid.

Both/and, not either/or.

So if you are sharing the plan of salvation with someone you tell them that they need to be saved by grace through faith plus works???

I tell them they need to follow Jesus.

You didn't answer the question.

There wasn't a question.

Here you go again - So if you are sharing the plan of salvation with someone you tell them that they need to be saved by grace through faith plus works???

If you say so.

Raider, rsca, has made it very clear what he tells someone when they ask, what must I do to be saved?

stranger: hi rsca, what must I do to be saved?

rsca: follow Jesus

stranger: ok

 

[Smellin Coffee]

If you are asking if a person that believes that it takes works and faith to get to Heaven is a natural man I would say, yes.

Don't like the book of James much?

Your works show that you are a Christian.  Your good works do not get you to Heaven.  Come on, even you aren't that stupid.

Both/and, not either/or.

So if you are sharing the plan of salvation with someone you tell them that they need to be saved by grace through faith plus works???

I tell them they need to follow Jesus.

You didn't answer the question.

There wasn't a question.

Here you go again - So if you are sharing the plan of salvation with someone you tell them that they need to be saved by grace through faith plus works???

If you say so.

Raider, rsca, has made it very clear what he tells someone when they ask, what must I do to be saved?

stranger: hi rsca, what must I do to be saved?

rsca: follow Jesus

stranger: ok

He's right.

When was the last time you heard these words of Jesus in the presentation of The 4 Spiritual Laws?

If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I would think Jesus had a better grasp of what God intends than did Paul. The servant is NOT greater than the Master. Why do we give our "Gospel Spiel" from the written words of the servant rather than pointing people to the recorded words of the Master?

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Jumping in with a little moderation to redirect to the OP.

I have been surprised at the responses.  Christians separate from the world, churches separate from each other and Christians separate from each other by this word "Standards."  In trying to define a standard, we, so far, have many definitions:

1.  My environment.  Whatever is socially acceptable.
2.  An expectation or requirement to be acceptable. 
3.  A rule or measure by which to judge others.
4.  A model established by public opinion by which others are measured.
5.  Jesus.  He is the blueprint for our lives.
6.  Guidelines by which behavior is governed, which will fluctuate depending upon the culture.
7.  An identifying mark, which is Jesus Christ.

One suggested that there is such a thing as a Biblical standard which does not change.  This was followed by an argument if there is such a thing and then we rabbit-trailed into what is necessary for salvation.

I find it interesting that most of these posts call standards something that is totally dependent upon public opinion and local culture.  This would cause the standard to constantly be changing.  In my mind, that really destroys the concept of standards in general.  I really don't think that a Christian should set standards for his life and separate from other Christians over what is socially acceptable in a particular culture.

Two of these definitions point to Jesus.  He is our standard by which we are measured.  I would think that this is much more applicable to the Christian who is trying to determine what standards to have in their life.

If we can't figure out what a standard is, how can we defend them to the point that we break fellowship with other Christians over our standards?  How can we help the new Christian develop these standards that are so important, if we can't even define what makes a standard a standard?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

If we can't figure out what a standard is, how can we defend them to the point that we break fellowship with other Christians over our standards?  How can we help the new Christian develop these standards that are so important, if we can't even define what makes a standard a standard?

Perhaps standards are not always absolutes. The lines of demarcation are extremely subjective. Take for example the issue of abortion. I am most definitely pro-life. But what about Christians who do not see it the same way? They love God, love others and yet, don't object to the idea of abortion. The Bible has many examples of aborted children that are put in as a command of God. (Hosea 9:11, Hosea 13:16, Num 5:11-21, Num 31:15-18, I Sam 15:3, II Kings 15:16, Ps. 137:8-9)

In turn, how can one teach the 'new Christian' that abortion is murder when God commanded it to be done in so many places in the Bible? Why would we demand of him to take on that 'standard' when it is subjective, even within the Scriptures themselves?

I've taught my kids to make their standards based on 3 main things: do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with God. For some individuals, they cannot drink alcohol or gamble because that particular behavior would affect one of those three areas whereas others might be able to do them and not be affected. Is it a perfect system, making every decision black-and-white? No way. But it is as close as I can figure.

Because standards are subjective, there is no reason for me to disassociate with those who follow Christ. I would make an exception if his behavior would cause me to be tempted to do wrong somehow, it would be understandable. There is no easy answer and certainly no definitive line of demarcation. We should get with God and figure out our own lives and remove our own beams before even considering trying to remove specs from the eyes of others.