What Is A Standard?

[Binaca Chugger]

If we can't figure out what a standard is, how can we defend them to the point that we break fellowship with other Christians over our standards?  How can we help the new Christian develop these standards that are so important, if we can't even define what makes a standard a standard?

Perhaps standards are not always absolutes. The lines of demarcation are extremely subjective. Take for example the issue of abortion. I am most definitely pro-life. But what about Christians who do not see it the same way? They love God, love others and yet, don't object to the idea of abortion. The Bible has many examples of aborted children that are put in as a command of God. (Hosea 9:11, Hosea 13:16, Num 5:11-21, Num 31:15-18, I Sam 15:3, II Kings 15:16, Ps. 137:8-9)

In turn, how can one teach the 'new Christian' that abortion is murder when God commanded it to be done in so many places in the Bible? Why would we demand of him to take on that 'standard' when it is subjective, even within the Scriptures themselves?

I've taught my kids to make their standards based on 3 main things: do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with God. For some individuals, they cannot drink alcohol or gamble because that particular behavior would affect one of those three areas whereas others might be able to do them and not be affected. Is it a perfect system, making every decision black-and-white? No way. But it is as close as I can figure.

Because standards are subjective, there is no reason for me to disassociate with those who follow Christ. I would make an exception if his behavior would cause me to be tempted to do wrong somehow, it would be understandable. There is no easy answer and certainly no definitive line of demarcation. We should get with God and figure out our own lives and remove our own beams before even considering trying to remove specs from the eyes of others.

I am going to choose to ignore your attempt to misconstrue Scripture to promote an opinion as an example.  Let's stick with how we should define, choose and teach our standards.

You claim that we should each choose our own standards based upon three principles: Do Justly, Love Mercy, Walk Humbly with thy God.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

If we can't figure out what a standard is, how can we defend them to the point that we break fellowship with other Christians over our standards?  How can we help the new Christian develop these standards that are so important, if we can't even define what makes a standard a standard?

Perhaps standards are not always absolutes. The lines of demarcation are extremely subjective. Take for example the issue of abortion. I am most definitely pro-life. But what about Christians who do not see it the same way? They love God, love others and yet, don't object to the idea of abortion. The Bible has many examples of aborted children that are put in as a command of God. (Hosea 9:11, Hosea 13:16, Num 5:11-21, Num 31:15-18, I Sam 15:3, II Kings 15:16, Ps. 137:8-9)

In turn, how can one teach the 'new Christian' that abortion is murder when God commanded it to be done in so many places in the Bible? Why would we demand of him to take on that 'standard' when it is subjective, even within the Scriptures themselves?

I've taught my kids to make their standards based on 3 main things: do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with God. For some individuals, they cannot drink alcohol or gamble because that particular behavior would affect one of those three areas whereas others might be able to do them and not be affected. Is it a perfect system, making every decision black-and-white? No way. But it is as close as I can figure.

Because standards are subjective, there is no reason for me to disassociate with those who follow Christ. I would make an exception if his behavior would cause me to be tempted to do wrong somehow, it would be understandable. There is no easy answer and certainly no definitive line of demarcation. We should get with God and figure out our own lives and remove our own beams before even considering trying to remove specs from the eyes of others.

I am going to choose to ignore your attempt to misconstrue Scripture to promote an opinion as an example.  Let's stick with how we should define, choose and teach our standards.

You claim that we should each choose our own standards based upon three principles: Do Justly, Love Mercy, Walk Humbly with thy God.

My personal opinion and not a standard I would expect everyone would or even should have.

 

[brainisengaged]

Prophet wrote: A "standard" is a flag which is carried into battle.  It identifies those under it, to everyone else. We have but one standard, as followers of Christ, and that is : Him. Nowhere were we ever told to make ourselves identifiable as His, by any other means, but than by loving one another.
So, if we are to have a standard, in the NT Church, it can only be to Love one another.

Thank you for this.

 

[Bruh]

I believe standards are better caught than taught.

If a person is truly born again and is in pursuit of righteousness the Holy Spirit will mold and teach them.

I've seen this more than once. People will pick up and apply to thier lives what is lived in front of them as they are invited to homes to fellowship. No need to sit and instruction them. Let them see how you interact with ur wife and ur children. Don't show them on purpose trying to prove a point, let them learn from ur walk.

There was a older couple my wife and I became friends with the first year of our marriage. We were at there house at least 2 to 3 times a month. They had kids later in life. Never did they sit a instruct but we just played board games and had fun. But we seen the way the interacted with each other and seen their life. As we seen them live we began to apply things they had in place.

Once a month after they put their kids to bed they would play a full game of monopoly. That said volumes to me.

Standards are better caught than taught.

So, you are saying that a standard is simply your environment?

Ok I re-thought ur response here, and understand a lil more what I was trying to say.



You asked how do we communicate ours standards to new believers. And I have my example above.

Your interpretation, to my response was that I was saying that standards depend on environment, if I understand you correctly?

So, to add to my explanation.

Standards do not depend on the culture but Definitely, they're better caught than taught, as in, sitting at a table.

Living it in front of them and allowing the Holy Spirit to do the sitting and instructing.

Hope all this makes sense?

 

[Fresh Air]

I am a touch late to this thread... 

Here is a paragraph from my next book. I have a chapter that deals with this subject. It is my attempt to answer the OP.

"At its root standards ? a word that means an acceptable code of conduct ? are about protection. There are three great enemies of the Christian man: the world, the flesh, and the devil. Standards protect us from most aspects of the first and some aspects of the latter two. They are guidelines that inform what we allow and do not allow so as to protect us from temptation."

...now I shall go back and read the thread and discover just why I am so wrong. 

 

[Fresh Air]

I believe standards are better caught than taught.

If a person is truly born again and is in pursuit of righteousness the Holy Spirit will mold and teach them.

I've seen this more than once. People will pick up and apply to thier lives what is lived in front of them as they are invited to homes to fellowship. No need to sit and instruction them. Let them see how you interact with ur wife and ur children. Don't show them on purpose trying to prove a point, let them learn from ur walk.

There was a older couple my wife and I became friends with the first year of our marriage. We were at there house at least 2 to 3 times a month. They had kids later in life. Never did they sit a instruct but we just played board games and had fun. But we seen the way the interacted with each other and seen their life. As we seen them live we began to apply things they had in place.

Once a month after they put their kids to bed they would play a full game of monopoly. That said volumes to me.

Standards are better caught than taught.

This is true in the sense of communicating the importance and application of them to new converts. It is not true when it comes to communicating why we hold them, especially to the young people who grow up in our movement.

If all we ever do is practice them without ever explaining in depth the reasons why we do at some point a bunch of young people are going to think we don't have any reasons - and they will walk away from those standards. All we ever gave them was what to do but not why to do it.

This is a fatal failing of several ministries with which I have been connected.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

...now I shall go back and read the thread and discover just why I am so wrong. 

I don't think you are wrong. Everybody has standards. Take that of women's dress. Whether one believes a woman's decency is dependent on her hiding everything, including her face or is OK to go topless wearing only a bikini brief on the beach, each step along the way is a matter of standard to most people. So having standards isn't the issue; the point of most arguments are where standards are to be drawn.

 

[Jim Jones]

...now I shall go back and read the thread and discover just why I am so wrong. 

I don't think you are wrong. Everybody has standards. Take that of women's dress. Whether one believes a woman's decency is dependent on her hiding everything, including her face or is OK to go topless wearing only a bikini brief on the beach, each step along the way is a matter of standard to most people. So having standards isn't the issue; the point of most arguments are where standards are to be drawn.

Scripture is the only standard.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

...now I shall go back and read the thread and discover just why I am so wrong. 

I don't think you are wrong. Everybody has standards. Take that of women's dress. Whether one believes a woman's decency is dependent on her hiding everything, including her face or is OK to go topless wearing only a bikini brief on the beach, each step along the way is a matter of standard to most people. So having standards isn't the issue; the point of most arguments are where standards are to be drawn.

Scripture is the only standard.

I disagree. I believe that Jesus was making that point when He said,

If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

If there is something that will lead us to sin, we should rid ourselves of it and set it up as a personal standard. This could mean something different for each person. For the man tempted to gamble, it might mean his personal standard of not watching professional sports to avoid the temptation. For a glutton, it might mean refraining from going to AYCE places. For the one who struggles with lust, avoiding the beach. Etc.

Jesus clearly teaches for us to find that which we personally identify as an entrapment leading to sin and cutting it out at the roots, even if it isn't an issue with someone else. But that will differ for each individual. So no, Scripture is not the standard. Besides, if it were, whose interpretation would be the set standard?

 

[Fresh Air]

Scripture is the only standard.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Scripture is the only standard in the sense that it is our sole authority. It is not the only standard in the sense in which the word is being used in this thread.

If what you meant to say is that Scripture must say something explicitly in order for us to follow it I would completely disagree. The Bible says some things explicitly, yes, but the Word of God also instructs us by example and principle. Principles have varied and multitudinous applications.

 

[Bruh]

Scripture is the only standard.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Scripture is the only standard in the sense that it is our sole authority. It is not the only standard in the sense in which the word is being used in this thread.

If what you meant to say is that Scripture must say something explicitly in order for us to follow it I would completely disagree. The Bible says some things explicitly, yes, but the Word of God also instructs us by example and principle. Principles have varied and multitudinous applications.

I agree with you here. My only question would be, if not stated black and white in scripture, should you as a pastor require ur Sunday school teachers do something that's not taught black and white in scripture?

Well, I know you think you can but how do you approach this? From the pulpit? Or in a teachers meeting? And how do you explain this as a requirement if not black and white in scripture?

 

[Jim Jones]

...now I shall go back and read the thread and discover just why I am so wrong. 

I don't think you are wrong. Everybody has standards. Take that of women's dress. Whether one believes a woman's decency is dependent on her hiding everything, including her face or is OK to go topless wearing only a bikini brief on the beach, each step along the way is a matter of standard to most people. So having standards isn't the issue; the point of most arguments are where standards are to be drawn.

Scripture is the only standard.

I disagree. I believe that Jesus was making that point when He said,

If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

If there is something that will lead us to sin, we should rid ourselves of it and set it up as a personal standard. This could mean something different for each person. For the man tempted to gamble, it might mean his personal standard of not watching professional sports to avoid the temptation. For a glutton, it might mean refraining from going to AYCE places. For the one who struggles with lust, avoiding the beach. Etc.

Jesus clearly teaches for us to find that which we personally identify as an entrapment leading to sin and cutting it out at the roots, even if it isn't an issue with someone else. But that will differ for each individual. So no, Scripture is not the standard. Besides, if it were, whose interpretation would be the set standard?

Exactly.

Consider the whole text.

Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God.

It's your faith. Not someone else's.

What you allow, in your faith before God, doesn't become my standard. It's yours.

This is why there is a failing of the second greatest commandment.

The individual faith (standard) is hoisted on the whole body of believers as being sinful.

However, my faith before God, allows me not to condemn it.

 

[Bruh]

Tom, I posted this in another thread. And thought maybe you could explain this to me. If you would rather not, I understand. But I thought maybe you'd have the best understanding to explain. I'm not trying to argue but sincerely don't understand this.

Thanks!





They lump you in with the Mormons.

The church we just left wouldn't even allow my wife to teach Sunday school because she wore pants. My wife was brought up her entire life in an IFB church she is a stay at home wife and homeschools our kids. Her first kiss was to me her husband pure as the driven snow graduated from a state university cares for her home treats her husband like a king that he is ;-) reads her bible and wasn't allowed to teach children's Sunday school because she wore pants.

We for the most part agreed pretty much on everything but because we disagreed on this ONE thing, she couldn't teach SS. Not doctrine nothing Fundamental but pants. Does this make sense to anyone? Because it doesn't to me. Like I said they lump you in with the Mormons over pants.  :

Tom, maybe you can explain this to me because I really honestly don't get it.

Understand something, she never wore pants to any church function not one time, we knew better than to do that.

 

[Fresh Air]

Tom, I posted this in another thread. And thought maybe you could explain this to me. If you would rather not, I understand. But I thought maybe you'd have the best understanding to explain. I'm not trying to argue but sincerely don't understand this.

Thanks!





They lump you in with the Mormons.

The church we just left wouldn't even allow my wife to teach Sunday school because she wore pants. My wife was brought up her entire life in an IFB church she is a stay at home wife and homeschools our kids. Her first kiss was to me her husband pure as the driven snow graduated from a state university cares for her home treats her husband like a king that he is ;-) reads her bible and wasn't allowed to teach children's Sunday school because she wore pants.

We for the most part agreed pretty much on everything but because we disagreed on this ONE thing, she couldn't teach SS. Not doctrine nothing Fundamental but pants. Does this make sense to anyone? Because it doesn't to me. Like I said they lump you in with the Mormons over pants.  :

Tom, maybe you can explain this to me because I really honestly don't get it.

Understand something, she never wore pants to any church function not one time, we knew better than to do that.

That isn't my position nor that of my church. I'm not quite sure why you would think I need to explain/defend it.

 

[Bruh]

Tom, I posted this in another thread. And thought maybe you could explain this to me. If you would rather not, I understand. But I thought maybe you'd have the best understanding to explain. I'm not trying to argue but sincerely don't understand this.

Thanks!





They lump you in with the Mormons.

The church we just left wouldn't even allow my wife to teach Sunday school because she wore pants. My wife was brought up her entire life in an IFB church she is a stay at home wife and homeschools our kids. Her first kiss was to me her husband pure as the driven snow graduated from a state university cares for her home treats her husband like a king that he is ;-) reads her bible and wasn't allowed to teach children's Sunday school because she wore pants.

We for the most part agreed pretty much on everything but because we disagreed on this ONE thing, she couldn't teach SS. Not doctrine nothing Fundamental but pants. Does this make sense to anyone? Because it doesn't to me. Like I said they lump you in with the Mormons over pants.  :

Tom, maybe you can explain this to me because I really honestly don't get it.

Understand something, she never wore pants to any church function not one time, we knew better than to do that.

That isn't my position nor that of my church. I'm not quite sure why you would think I need to explain/defend it.

Well, I thought maybe it would be ur position at ur church, I was wrong. Thanks!

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Bruh,

Try reading the posts on "A Brief History of the IFB."  Pants on women has been the one standard that is the ultimate litmus test for the IFB as they focus on the outward appearance more than the inward relationship.  I don't think anyone knows why this one standard is the ultimate issue for the IFB.  Maybe because it does occur outside the home and is easily seen by all people.  Gluttony, pornography, sexual promiscuity, pride, love of money, ignoring your family, abandoning relationship with God.......all these can be hidden from public view and explained under the guise of ministry.  Pants on women is almost always the point brought up by those questioning the IFB and those in the IFB.

 

[IFB X-Files]

Gluttony.......all these can be hidden from public view....

Have you actually seen RAIDER lately?

 

[RAIDER]

Gluttony.......all these can be hidden from public view....

Have you actually seen RAIDER lately?

I buffet my body daily!

 

[Vince Massi]

Two things about standards:

The doctrine that man-made rules are both the cause and result of holiness is false.

Standards are often used to keep people from using their spiritual gifts to edify the church.

 

[Fresh Air]

Well, I thought maybe it would be ur position at ur church, I was wrong. Thanks!

We require our female SS teachers to wear skirts/dresses while teaching but we have no requirement in that area outside of that context.

I'm a bishop (contrary to what Prophet thinks) of/at the assembly. I'm not a dictator away from the assembly.