Wine and alcohol in the Bible

[Tim]

Smellin Coffee, is that what I said? I gave just a little bit of back ground! The father is the alcoholic because of HIS behavior he has two sons screwed up! One is going down the path of an alcoholic (but hey what is one drink) and the other son is gay. Because of his drinking problem he did not raise his sons to love and serve the Lord he was too busy drinking.  I have no patience for a "christian" that believes drinking is ok, I have seen what happens when one drink leads to more. And the out come destroys lives!! But go ahead and play the game, you are now free in Christ!!

Of all the pathetic arguments against alcohol, this is the most pathetic.  "I have seen what happens when people abuse X, therefore nobody should ever do X." 

I could replace X with almost anything.  Sex.  The ministry.  Marriage.  Eat McDonald's.  The list is almost limitless.  People abuse stuff.  It's not the fault of the stuff.  Now say it.  "I have no patience with Christians who think Sex, The ministry, Marriage, McDonald's is ok."

It's like the gun control argument.  "I have seen people shoot people with guns, therefore nobody should ever have guns."  The gun isn't at fault, and you won't solve the problem by banning guns.

Thing is, when I eat some of Grandmas Fried Chicken I don't immediately turn and start acting like a fool. I don't hit my wife and say "sorry, had some MCDonalds on the way home from work .." I don't drive while drinking coffee and start to cross the line, hit a car, and kill a child. You can't replace X with almost anything. Sure, certain things are good and addictive (like my mothers cheese cake) ... some kill with time ... but alcohol sure acts like the Devil most the time I see it.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tim]I just find it crazy that perhaps Jesus would hand a Bud Lite to a friend and smile. I find it crazy that he would pop a can open and drink a little himself.[/quote]

I know. It's shocking that Jesus wouldn't act like a tee-totaling American Republican fundamentalist evangelical...after all, when you spend so much time making a god after your own image, the God as revealed in Jesus is downright scandalous.

Although I too have a hard time imagining Jesus would hand a Bud to someone. That stuff is disgusting. Now a rum and Coke...

[quote author=Tim]Knowing that alcohol has a unique ability to be so addictive and harmful, it just seems like Jesus was handing a friend a gun and playing Russian Roulette.[/quote]

No, it doesn't; therefore, no, it's not.

[quote author=Tim]This seems so unlike the Master I follow. I see Jesus as being perhaps more responsible for those he calls "friend" .....[/quote]

Then maybe you should reconsider whether the master you follow is based on an accurate understanding of Jesus.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I don't drive while drinking coffee and start to cross the line, hit a car, and kill a child. You can't replace X with almost anything.

Then since there are many accidents and some deaths due to texting and driving, I'm guessing you are a proponent of never using cell phones to text.

 

[Tim]

[quote author=Tim]I just find it crazy that perhaps Jesus would hand a Bud Lite to a friend and smile. I find it crazy that he would pop a can open and drink a little himself.

I know. It's shocking that Jesus wouldn't act like a tee-totaling American Republican fundamentalist evangelical...after all, when you spend so much time making a god after your own image, the God as revealed in Jesus is downright scandalous.

Although I too have a hard time imagining Jesus would hand a Bud to someone. That stuff is disgusting. Now a rum and Coke...

[quote author=Tim]Knowing that alcohol has a unique ability to be so addictive and harmful, it just seems like Jesus was handing a friend a gun and playing Russian Roulette.[/quote]

No, it doesn't; therefore, no, it's not.

[quote author=Tim]This seems so unlike the Master I follow. I see Jesus as being perhaps more responsible for those he calls "friend" .....[/quote]

Then maybe you should reconsider whether the master you follow is based on an accurate understanding of Jesus.
[/quote]

So, let me get this straight. Jesus comes down to earth and meets a guy named Peter who follows him as a disciple, this friend later writes "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." ( 1 Peter 5:8 )

We take the advice he gives very seriously, and we regard these words as God's Holy Word ... but, when it comes to a beverage that immediately affects the mind we assume Jesus drank it, shared it with his friends, and we are sure it's okay for us to drink it as well. Yet, this beverage that Jesus gave to his friends can be a direct conflict against what Peter wrote down. His words almost are saying "abstinence from wine is best to defeat the devil"

How can you be sober minded even after one drink? The truth is, you can't unless this drink is so diluted the alcohol content is basically gone.

http://youtu.be/zXjANz9r5F0

 

[Tim]

I don't drive while drinking coffee and start to cross the line, hit a car, and kill a child. You can't replace X with almost anything.

Then since there are many accidents and some deaths due to texting and driving, I'm guessing you are a proponent of never using cell phones to text.

One should be careful on the road. I have 5 children that I wouldn't want to see hurt by some fool texting their BFF. Cell phone use while driving has become a huge issue - and yes, I am a huge proponent of never using cell phones to text while driving. But cell phones and alcohol are two different things entirely.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]Then maybe you should reconsider whether the master you follow is based on an accurate understanding of Jesus.

So, let me get this straight. Jesus comes down to earth and meets a guy named Peter who follows him as a disciple, this friend later writes "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." ( 1 Peter 5:8 )

We take the advice he gives very seriously, and we regard these words as God's Holy Word ... but, when it comes to a beverage that immediately affects the mind we assume Jesus drank it, shared it with his friends, and we are sure it's okay for us to drink it as well. Yet, this beverage that Jesus gave to his friends can be a direct conflict against what Peter wrote down. His words almost are saying "abstinence from wine is best to defeat the devil"

How can you be sober minded even after one drink? The truth is, you can't unless this drink is so diluted the alcohol content is basically gone.[/quote]

"...sober mind..." doesn't mean what you apparently think it means.

 

[Tim]

[quote author=rsc2a]Then maybe you should reconsider whether the master you follow is based on an accurate understanding of Jesus.

So, let me get this straight. Jesus comes down to earth and meets a guy named Peter who follows him as a disciple, this friend later writes "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." ( 1 Peter 5:8 )

We take the advice he gives very seriously, and we regard these words as God's Holy Word ... but, when it comes to a beverage that immediately affects the mind we assume Jesus drank it, shared it with his friends, and we are sure it's okay for us to drink it as well. Yet, this beverage that Jesus gave to his friends can be a direct conflict against what Peter wrote down. His words almost are saying "abstinence from wine is best to defeat the devil"

How can you be sober minded even after one drink? The truth is, you can't unless this drink is so diluted the alcohol content is basically gone.

"...sober mind..." doesn't mean what you apparently think it means.
[/quote]

Hmmmm .... what about "be alert" .... am I clueless about that as well?

I assume sober mind could be defined as, oh, "in one's right mind" ... how do you define it?

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=rsc2a]Then maybe you should reconsider whether the master you follow is based on an accurate understanding of Jesus.

So, let me get this straight. Jesus comes down to earth and meets a guy named Peter who follows him as a disciple, this friend later writes "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." ( 1 Peter 5:8 )

We take the advice he gives very seriously, and we regard these words as God's Holy Word ... but, when it comes to a beverage that immediately affects the mind we assume Jesus drank it, shared it with his friends, and we are sure it's okay for us to drink it as well. Yet, this beverage that Jesus gave to his friends can be a direct conflict against what Peter wrote down. His words almost are saying "abstinence from wine is best to defeat the devil"

How can you be sober minded even after one drink? The truth is, you can't unless this drink is so diluted the alcohol content is basically gone.

"...sober mind..." doesn't mean what you apparently think it means.

Hmmmm .... what about "be alert" .... am I clueless about that as well?

I assume sober mind could be defined as, oh, "in one's right mind" ... how do you define it?
[/quote]

He never has an absolute definition for much of anything. He doesn't deal in absolutes.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tim]Hmmmm .... what about "be alert" .... am I clueless about that as well?

I assume sober mind could be defined as, oh, "in one's right mind" ... how do you define it?
[/quote]

My understanding of that verse is consistent with the Church's understanding for the last 1900 years. Virtually every commentary you could find will be able to explain it for you. (Oh yeah...and the internal context clearly shows that the verse is not referring to alcohol.)

 

[Tim]

[quote author=Tim]Hmmmm .... what about "be alert" .... am I clueless about that as well?

I assume sober mind could be defined as, oh, "in one's right mind" ... how do you define it?

My understanding of that verse is consistent with the Church's understanding for the last 1900 years. Virtually every commentary you could find will be able to explain it for you. (Oh yeah...and the internal context clearly shows that the verse is not referring to alcohol.)
[/quote]

Naturally it isn't referring to alcohol, well exclusively anyway. Anything that causes us to drop our alert would be included.

Wait ... I guess you don't read Adam Clark?

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

Be sober - Avoid drunkenness of your senses, and drunkenness in your souls; be not overcharged with the concerns of the world.

Be vigilant - Awake, and keep awake; be always watchful; never be off your guard; your enemies are alert, they are never off theirs.

Your adversary the devil - This is the reason why ye should be sober and vigilant; ye have an ever active, implacable, subtle enemy to contend with. He walketh about - he has access to you everywhere; he knows your feelings and your propensities, and informs himself of all your circumstances; only God can know more and do more than he, therefore your care must be cast upon God.

As a roaring lion - Satan tempts under three forms:

1. The subtle serpent; to beguile our senses, pervert our judgment, and enchant our imagination.

2. As an angel of light; to deceive us with false views of spiritual things, refinements in religion, and presumption on the providence and grace of God.

3. As a roaring lion; to bear us down, and destroy us by violent opposition, persecution, and death. Thus he was acting towards the followers of God at Pontus, etc., who were now suffering a grievous persecution.

Walketh about - Traversing the earth; a plain reference to Job 2:2, which see.

Seeking whom he may devour - Τινα καταπιῃ· Whom he may gulp down. It is not every one that he can swallow down: those who are sober and vigilant are proof against him, these he May Not swallow down; those who are drunken with the cares of this world, etc., and are unwatchful, these he May swallow down. There is a beauty in this verse, and a striking apposition between the first and last words, which I think have not been noticed: Be sober, νηψατε from νη, not, and πιειν to drink; do not drink, do not swallow down: and the word καταπιῃ, from κατα, down, and πιειν, to drink. If you swallow strong drink down, the devil will swallow you down. Hear this, ye drunkards, topers, tipplers, or by whatsoever name you are known in society, or among your fellow sinners. Strong drink is not only the way to the devil, but the devil's way into you; and Ye are such as the devil particularly May swallow down.

 

[subllibrm]

Anything that causes us to drop our alert would be included.

Which is why I believe squirrels should be outlawed.  8)

 

[rsc2a]

Anything that causes us to drop our alert would be included.

Which is why I believe squirrels should be outlawed.  8)

And televisions. And cell phones. And dinner parties. And cat naps. And buffet lines. And conga lines!

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tim]Hmmmm .... what about "be alert" .... am I clueless about that as well?

I assume sober mind could be defined as, oh, "in one's right mind" ... how do you define it?

My understanding of that verse is consistent with the Church's understanding for the last 1900 years. Virtually every commentary you could find will be able to explain it for you. (Oh yeah...and the internal context clearly shows that the verse is not referring to alcohol.)

Naturally it isn't referring to alcohol, well exclusively anyway. Anything that causes us to drop our alert would be included.

Wait ... I guess you don't read Adam Clark?

Be sober - Avoid drunkenness of your senses, and drunkenness in your souls; be not overcharged with the concerns of the world.[/quote]

Those words I bolded...they are important.

 

[kaba]

And how do you become drunk?

 

[rsc2a]

And how do you become drunk?

In a way similar to how one becomes a glutton...

 

[Tim]

[quote author=Tim]Hmmmm .... what about "be alert" .... am I clueless about that as well?

I assume sober mind could be defined as, oh, "in one's right mind" ... how do you define it?

My understanding of that verse is consistent with the Church's understanding for the last 1900 years. Virtually every commentary you could find will be able to explain it for you. (Oh yeah...and the internal context clearly shows that the verse is not referring to alcohol.)

Naturally it isn't referring to alcohol, well exclusively anyway. Anything that causes us to drop our alert would be included.

Wait ... I guess you don't read Adam Clark?

Be sober - Avoid drunkenness of your senses, and drunkenness in your souls; be not overcharged with the concerns of the world.

Those words I bolded...they are important.
[/quote]

But does not one glass of wine make a man less vigilant? I agree that drunkenness makes one dangerously vulnerable to the devil, but he is described as subtle and the devil can take that one drink of wine and turn it into drunkenness, and from that an honorable man could end up in jail! This all in a matter of hours! The warning in scripture is loud! And yes, perhaps the liberty to drink is presented as well (THANK GOD FOR GRACE!). We are living in a sin cursed world after all - and as the scripture says, "STAY ON GUARD!"

 

[Tim]

And how do you become drunk?

In a way similar to how one becomes a glutton...

The power of alcohol makes it a unique item IMHO.

I never knew a young adult to crash a car after eating at McDonalds (due to the effect of the substance consumed).

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tim]But does not one glass of wine make a man less vigilant?[/quote]

No.

[quote author=Tim]I agree that drunkenness makes one dangerously vulnerable to the devil, but he is described as subtle...[/quote]

Yes.

[quote author=Tim]...and the devil can take that one drink of wine and turn it into drunkenness, and from that an honorable man could end up in jail![/quote]

Satan can violate the laws of biology with impunity?

[quote author=Tim]The warning in scripture is loud! And yes, perhaps the liberty to drink is presented as well (THANK GOD FOR GRACE!). We are living in a sin cursed world after all - and as the scripture says, "STAY ON GUARD!"[/quote]

That underlined part...that's why any "biblical" argument that determines total abstinence is the only acceptable position is without any merit.

[quote author=Tim]The power of alcohol makes it a unique item IMHO.[/quote]

Yet the Bible explicitly links it to food. Hmm...

[quote author=Tim]I never knew a young adult to crash a car after eating at McDonalds (due to the effect of the substance consumed).[/quote]

I've never known a person who drank responsibly to crash a car (due to the effect of the substance consumed).

 

[Tim]

[quote author=Tim]But does not one glass of wine make a man less vigilant?

No.

[quote author=Tim]I agree that drunkenness makes one dangerously vulnerable to the devil, but he is described as subtle...[/quote]

No.

[quote author=Tim]...and the devil can take that one drink of wine and turn it into drunkenness, and from that an honorable man could end up in jail![/quote]

Satan can violate the laws of biology with impunity?

[quote author=Tim]The warning in scripture is loud! And yes, perhaps the liberty to drink is presented as well (THANK GOD FOR GRACE!). We are living in a sin cursed world after all - and as the scripture says, "STAY ON GUARD!"[/quote]

That underlined part...that's why any "biblical" argument that determines total abstinence is the only acceptable position is without any merit.

[quote author=Tim]The power of alcohol makes it a unique item IMHO.[/quote]

Yet the Bible explicitly links it to food. Hmm...

[quote author=Tim]I never knew a young adult to crash a car after eating at McDonalds (due to the effect of the substance consumed).[/quote]

I've never known a person who drank responsibly to crash a car (due to the effect of the substance consumed).
[/quote]

I will let Matthew Henry's have my last say. I can't keep focusing on this without seeming militantly against alcohol. I am sensitive to the subject since my own grandfather died from alcohol abuse, and I have learned I too have a similar weakness/temptation. But, Matthew Henry probably states things best below ... we are weak, God is strong, we need be careful in this life ...

The drunkenness of Noah is recorded in the Bible, with that fairness which is found only in the Scripture, as a case and proof of human weakness and imperfection, even though he may have been surprised into the sin; and to show that the best of men cannot stand upright, unless they depend upon Divine grace, and are upheld thereby. Matthew Henry

 

[subllibrm]

So a priest, a blond and a horse walk into a bar. The bartender says "what is this some sort of a joke"