Arrogant and Impolite - This is Why they Hate Us

[S.T.Ranger]

"I see no liberty among Christians to alter their minds. To relinquish self control. To nullify the control of God in our lives."

Alcohol alters the mind and it is oftentimes allowed in scripture.  Thus, altering the mind cannot be used as a reason to declare something a sin.

Drunkenness is forbidden. It is sin. It is one of the characteristics listed concerning who will not enter the Kingdom of God. So what reason can one give for drinking alcohol in our culture?

Here is the clear statement of drinking as a sin:


Romans 14:21
King James Version (KJV)

21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.


To preach "Its okay to drink" will likely cause someone, somewhere...to stumble. Those who say "I can take a mind altering substance that inhibits self control and control it" are, in my opinion, fooling themselves.

As far as Disney, Chips, and Motorcycles go, the point was to show that they can be damaging, dangerous, and wasteful with no redeeming value to them.  Disney is for fun.  Chips are only eaten because we like the taste.  Motorcycles can end your life quickly when a car could be safer.  We do them because we like them despite the risks.  We don't consider them sins though. 

Not even comparable to drinking and drugging.

None of these things alter the mind.

I think alcohol and drug use are more dangerous, more damaging, and more wasteful than Disney and Frito Lay, but the same standards still apply.

No, the same standards do not apply. One cannot be arrested for driving a motorcycle to Disneyland to eat potato chips.

There are no laws that govern anyone indulging in these activities.

There is no Biblical standard which warns against them.

I don't get to choose where we draw the line.  I think stoners are annoying and I can't stand the drug culture, but that is not my place to rewrite scripture. 

You have drawn the line, somewhere well before the notion that drinking and drugging is something Christians should avoid.

It falls into acceptable behavior in your defense of it.

And no need to rewrite Scripture, simply acknowledge what is said:


Matthew 24:48-50
King James Version (KJV)

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,


Luke 21:34
King James Version (KJV)

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.


Romans 13:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.


Galatians 5:20-22
King James Version (KJV)

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


1 Corinthians 5:11
King James Version (KJV)

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.



And last but not least...


Ephesians 5:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;


...which takes us back to the simple point I made concerning alcohol being contrary to our pursuits as Christians: Being filled with the Spirit is shown as contrasted to being...drunk.

Now just how drunk do you suppose a Christian has to be to quench the Spirit?

Who, in his right mind...would think one could be drinking alcohol without risk of quenching the Spirit?

If Scripture makes this contrast, don't you think we ought to as well? If drinking is contrary to being filled with the Spirit, and leadership is denied to those who indulge, isn't it a logical conclusion that those who do indulge...

...simply do not care if they are filled with the Spirit or not?

Can we not simply influence people to make better decisions without using the Bible as a club by telling people it says what it doesn't say?

Influence people apart from what the Word of God teaches?

Sure, if one is worried about being politically correct. I guess not being politically correct could hinder social drinking...


God bless.

 

[Ransom]

Here is the clear statement of drinking as a sin:


Romans 14:21
King James Version (KJV)

21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

So your Christian convictions have led you to vegetarianism as well?

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Here is the clear statement of drinking as a sin:


Romans 14:21
King James Version (KJV)

21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

So your Christian convictions have led you to vegetarianism as well?

Look at the context, Ransom. It is not just a matter of eating meat, but meat which would be considered unclean to a Jewish brother or sister. So to answer your question, no, I would not eat a BLT in front of a believer that felt compelled to obey dietary laws.

What I would do is try to teach that fellow that it is his decision to follow laws that pertain to his culture, but, he needs to understand that the Covenant of Law has been abrogated by the New Covenant, and no such mandate was ever placed upon Gentiles.

What I could not do is tell him it is his decision to indulge in a substance/s that are contrary to the no-brainer desire for believers to be filled with the Spirit.

And as a matter of fact we did, some years ago, try out a vegetarian diet. Man was created a vegetarian, and despite the fall it makes sense that fueling the body as it was created to be fueled is also a no-brainer. I felt healthier, but, pizza is just not pizza without pepperoni.

And thanks for making the central point of the thread, but, do you have something to contribute to the discussion?

Do you feel Christians have liberty to use marijuana? If yes, why? If no, why?


God bless.

 

[Ransom]

Look at the context, Ransom. It is not just a matter of eating meat, but meat which would be considered unclean to a Jewish brother or sister. So to answer your question, no, I would not eat a BLT in front of a believer that felt compelled to obey dietary laws.

Why qualify it with "in front of a believer that felt compelled to obey dietary laws"? Do you also qualify the supposed "clear statement of drinking as a sin" by saying you wouldn't drink wine "in front of a believer who felt compelled to be teetotal"?

It is not me that is abusing context. It's your special pleading that is doing that.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Look at the context, Ransom. It is not just a matter of eating meat, but meat which would be considered unclean to a Jewish brother or sister. So to answer your question, no, I would not eat a BLT in front of a believer that felt compelled to obey dietary laws.

Why qualify it with "in front of a believer that felt compelled to obey dietary laws"?

Because in my case I do eat pork.

Not at all relevant to alcohol use. And eating pork does not alter the mind.

As I said, I would seek to show the believer that I, and they, have liberty to eat pork, but...

...I cannot do that with alcohol use.

I cannot say to a brother or sister "I think we have to make that decision on our own," because first, Scripture seeks often to deter people from alcohol use, showing the dangers, and showing it to conflict with being filled with the Holy Ghost. Secondly, in the case of the Jewish believer we have a separation of sorts because for those raised up within their culture, they have a right to retain their heritage (though not to confuse that with being under Law). What I mean by that is that if a Jew recognizes the dietary Laws as a part of their heritage and choose to refuse to eat pork, that is one thing, but, if one says "We cannot eat pork" it is easily rectified by Scripture. For a Gentile to take on their culture makes little sense, though we see some do that. So for the Jew, I see it as acceptable, for the Gentile, edging into absurdity. And for those who promote being under the (Covenant of) Law...ludicrous.

So for the sake of a Jewish believer in Christ...I would not eat a BLT in front of them, that I not offend their sensibilities. And for those who drink alcohol, best if they keep a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy because they have no hope of, through Scripture...justifying that which inhibits the filling of the Holy Ghost and self control, two very contrary results of alcohol use.

And you still have not given the first reason why someone in our culture...needs to drink alcohol.

Do you also qualify the supposed "clear statement of drinking as a sin" by saying you wouldn't drink wine "in front of a believer who felt compelled to be teetotal"?

As explained above, apples and oranges.

And it is interesting that we can see...you would not. You would harass someone who takes a view that Christians do not need to drink alcohol, and have no good reason to. Again, alcohol alters the mind, and that is the primary reason people drink it. "It helps me to relax."

Try reading your Bibles, people, that'll help you relax.

It is not me that is abusing context.

I agree...you are ignoring it.

Do you drink alcohol Ransom?

It's your special pleading that is doing that.

Here is some special pleading: just answer the questions posed to you.

Do you drink alcohol?

What good reason can you give to drink alcohol?

What purpose does it serve?

Do you think it is okay, as another member stated, that it the decision of the believer to use marijuana?

Do you think marijuana use is okay?


My views are not the focus, Ransom, the topic is centered on 1) can/should Christians drink, and 2) is it "beating people over the heads with the Bible" if one takes a view Christians have no business altering their state of mind.

Address the OP.


God bless.

 

[cpizzle]

I will answer your questions:

Do you drink alcohol?  Nope, never have.  I tell people is dangerous, destructive, annoying, obsolete, and it gives the appearance of worldliness.  When asked at Publix to sign a petition to get wine into the grocery store, I said I would rather sign a petition to get liquor out of the liquor store. 

What good reason can you give to drink alcohol?  None.  Drinking alcohol is done solely for purpose of bodily pleasure.

What purpose does it serve?  None at all.  Medicine replaces "wine for thy belly" and clean drinking water replaces the need for an antiseptic alternative.  Juice can be easily preserved without fermentation. 

Do you think it is okay, as another member stated, that it the decision of the believer to use marijuana?  I don't think marijuana use is the decision of the believer.  It is the decision of the Holy Ghost.  I think it is God's will that we don't become addicted to anything.  I think we should avoid anything that we can easily be addicted to.  This included smoking, drinking, chewing, gambling, etc.  If I tried a joint one time and never did it again....did I sin?  Inhaling burning leaves sounds stupid, but not sinful.

Do you think marijuana use is okay?
No.  The only difference between alcohol and marijuana is that marijuana is probably safer.  If the Bible does not universally condemn moderate alcohol consumption, then how I can state it universally condemns marijuana.  I think both are dangerous and should be avoided.  I won't do either one.  I have many Bible principals that say it is not a good thing.  Both are certainly a vice. 

See, here is where I stand.  I can preach against both, caution against both, and loudly proclaim their dangers.  I know that no kid goes to bed hungry and no wife goes to bed bruised because their father/husband had too many Big Macs.  I know that one does not become a "chipaholic."  I know that liquor can destroy your body, your home, and your testimony.  Despite all this, I cannot be Biblically honest and boldly state that God unconditionally declares them a sin.

 

[cpizzle]

"My views are not the focus, Ransom, the topic is centered on 1) can/should Christians drink, and 2) is it "beating people over the heads with the Bible" if one takes a view Christians have no business altering their state of mind.

Address the OP."

You are approaching the topic the same way the original person I corresponded with did. 

You say, of course it is a sin, see all the ways God says it can be bad.  Then you ignore all the times the Bible does not condemn it. 

You think because I want to be Biblically honest that I either want to do it myself or that I encourage others.  Both are incorrect.

You say that because it can't do any good, then it must be bad.  Once again, many things are wasteful and dangerous that we don't believe to be sinful. 

I set out years ago to find the "silver bullet" in scripture that says drinking is always wrong.  I was preaching that it always was, now I just needed the Bible to back me up.  I couldn't prove it to myself, so I won't preach it to others.  My position is that it is a bad idea with potentially devastating consequences.  I just won't say that all alcohol consumption must be sinful. 

 

[subllibrm]

"My views are not the focus, Ransom, the topic is centered on 1) can/should Christians drink, and 2) is it "beating people over the heads with the Bible" if one takes a view Christians have no business altering their state of mind.

Address the OP."

You are approaching the topic the same way the original person I corresponded with did. 

You say, of course it is a sin, see all the ways God says it can be bad.  Then you ignore all the times the Bible does not condemn it. 

You think because I want to be Biblically honest that I either want to do it myself or that I encourage others.  Both are incorrect.

You say that because it can't do any good, then it must be bad.  Once again, many things are wasteful and dangerous that we don't believe to be sinful. 

I set out years ago to find the "silver bullet" in scripture that says drinking is always wrong.  I was preaching that it always was, now I just needed the Bible to back me up.  I couldn't prove it to myself, so I won't preach it to others.  My position is that it is a bad idea with potentially devastating consequences.  I just won't say that all alcohol consumption must be sinful.

I could sit under a man with your convictions about scripture.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

I will answer your questions:

Do you drink alcohol?  Nope, never have.  I tell people is dangerous, destructive, annoying, obsolete, and it gives the appearance of worldliness.  When asked at Publix to sign a petition to get wine into the grocery store, I said I would rather sign a petition to get liquor out of the liquor store. 

What good reason can you give to drink alcohol?  None.  Drinking alcohol is done solely for purpose of bodily pleasure.

What purpose does it serve?  None at all.  Medicine replaces "wine for thy belly" and clean drinking water replaces the need for an antiseptic alternative.  Juice can be easily preserved without fermentation. 

Okay, so let me see if I have this straight: the Bible doesn't teach that alcohol is "is dangerous, destructive, annoying, obsolete, and it gives the appearance of worldliness," but you do.

So the conclusion (and forgive my syllogistic and facetious means of making a point) is that you are teaching unbiblical notions to the world. What you decide stands as more relevant than what Scripture teaches?

Do you think it is okay, as another member stated, that it the decision of the believer to use marijuana?  I don't think marijuana use is the decision of the believer.  It is the decision of the Holy Ghost. 

I agree, and the decision is that defying the mandate to be filled with the Spirit and to maintain self control needs no explanation.

In other words...He has not given any grounds by which one could rationally indulge in drugs.

I think it is God's will that we don't become addicted to anything.

But you refuse to tell people to refrain from highly addictive substances?

People do not try out drugs and alcohol on a whim, generally, they do so because they intend to change the state of their minds. Most, with the exception of perhaps a few airheads in California, understand fully what alcohol and drugs do to a person, as well as the traumatic consequences of drugs on one's life, family, health, et cetera.

Watch one episode of COPS, for Pete's sake, lol.

I think we should avoid anything that we can easily be addicted to.  This included smoking, drinking, chewing, gambling, etc.  If I tried a joint one time and never did it again....did I sin? 

Pretty much, based on your testimony here. Your teaching is conflicting. You teach it is a harmful habit and destructive...but you can't tell people the Bible doesn't teach against it?

Inhaling burning leaves sounds stupid, but not sinful.

Again, the simple point is that those who seek to alter their minds rebel against some pretty basic principles, principles which you do quite a good job of listing:

I tell people is dangerous, destructive, annoying, obsolete, and it gives the appearance of worldliness.

I think both are dangerous and should be avoided. 

I have many Bible principals that say it is not a good thing. 

I can preach against both, caution against both, and loudly proclaim their dangers. 

I know that liquor can destroy your body, your home, and your testimony. 

And yet you also say...

Despite all this, I cannot be Biblically honest and boldly state that God unconditionally declares them a sin.

So in other words you preach that these...

I tell people is dangerous, destructive, annoying, obsolete, and it gives the appearance of worldliness.

I think both are dangerous and should be avoided. 

I have many Bible principals that say it is not a good thing. 

I can preach against both, caution against both, and loudly proclaim their dangers. 

I know that liquor can destroy your body, your home, and your testimony. 

Are unrelated to sin, so, people can decide for themselves if they want to drink alcohol, and let the Holy Ghost decide for them whether they should toke on a joint or not, seeing it is safer than alcohol, even though...

I tell people is dangerous, destructive, annoying, obsolete, and it gives the appearance of worldliness.

I think both are dangerous and should be avoided. 

I have many Bible principals that say it is not a good thing. 

I can preach against both, caution against both, and loudly proclaim their dangers. 

I know that liquor can destroy your body, your home, and your testimony. 

I'm sorry, but in trying to justify your position you have only shown the absolute hypocrisy of not taking a decided position that warns every man of the dangers you speak about here. To say...

Despite all this, I cannot be Biblically honest and boldly state that God unconditionally declares them a sin.

...is to say "It is okay to indulge in fleshly habits that are dangerous and destructive to your body, home, and testimony."

You might want to rethink your position, my friend.


God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

"My views are not the focus, Ransom, the topic is centered on 1) can/should Christians drink, and 2) is it "beating people over the heads with the Bible" if one takes a view Christians have no business altering their state of mind.

Address the OP."

You are approaching the topic the same way the original person I corresponded with did. 

Not really, because the first point I made is that there is little value in trying to impose cultural aspects of Old Testament Economies into our own culture.

You are kidding yourself if you think your teaching is not harmful. To wink at alcohol consumption is a promotion of it, because you know, and I know, that there are more than enough people out there that are looking for an excuse to do so. And for you to throw on top of that "Marijuana use is probably safer..."

Sheesh.

Secondly, I have also introduced the fact that anything that inhibits the filling of the Spirit, which should a primary concern for every Christian, as well as inhibits the directive to maintain self control, which is something that is not optional for our leadership. And if Leadership serves as a guide to those newer or weaker in faith...don't you think there is an implication that drinking should be avoided by all?

Scripture deals with realities, and acknowledges that there are going to be people sinning among the body. That doesn't mean we encourage it.

And you know as well as I that a positive stance that we do far better by refraining from alcohol at all can help those growing in Christ, whereas a nod to drinking and drug use, a literal statement "I won't tell you that it is a sin at all times," which leaves  it open to interpretation by the individual who might think a twelve pack of beer during the ball game is moderate consumption.

You say, of course it is a sin, see all the ways God says it can be bad.  Then you ignore all the times the Bible does not condemn it. 

Hard to ignore something not in Scripture. Show me the New Testament Doctrine that Scripture is "not condemning" alcohol.

Secondly...you are ignoring "all the ways God says it can be bad."

You think because I want to be Biblically honest that I either want to do it myself or that I encourage others.  Both are incorrect.

I don't see the conflicting teaching of your last post as being Biblically honest. I see it as double-speak. You are saying two opposing sets of principles. You know its bad, but cannot see in Scripture why.

You say that because it can't do any good, then it must be bad. 

But its not just a matter of "it can't do any good," my friend...it is a matter of...


I tell people is dangerous, destructive, annoying, obsolete, and it gives the appearance of worldliness.

I think both are dangerous and should be avoided.

I have many Bible principals that say it is not a good thing.

I can preach against both, caution against both, and loudly proclaim their dangers.

I know that liquor can destroy your body, your home, and your testimony. 

Which begs the question...


I can preach against both, caution against both, and loudly proclaim their dangers.


...can you really? Even while at the same time saying...you can't?

Once again, many things are wasteful and dangerous that we don't believe to be sinful. 

Well, the good news for those who buy into your teaching is that it is very possible they may not be judged for their indulgence and the consequences of their indulgence.

But their Teacher will be.

I set out years ago to find the "silver bullet" in scripture that says drinking is always wrong. 

We don't draw conclusions from explicit statement only, but implicit as well. We do not read that Christ bathed but there is a high probability He did.

You have listed enough principle on the subject that I have to wonder why you refuse to take your own conclusions as relevant.

I was preaching that it always was, now I just needed the Bible to back me up. 

Do you still do that?

I couldn't prove it to myself, so I won't preach it to others. 

You mean you have "proved" that God exists, manifested in flesh, died, Resurrected, and returned to Heaven to those you preach to?

It's not our job to prove anything, but simply convey the Doctrine of the Bible.

My position is that it is a bad idea with potentially devastating consequences. 

Correct. Now go preach it brother.

I just won't say that all alcohol consumption must be sinful.

You will give the principles which make that conclusion readily apparent, but you won't preach it to those you have been given charge over?


God bless.

 

[BibleGal]

We just got back from a vacation with my wife's siblings. We had a great time catching up and going down memory lane.

My wife is the youngest of seven and six of them made the trip. Prior to her parents death her siblings would all attempt to attend all family events. Those who smoked or drank chose to abstain for mom and dad's sake. Since the death of the parents, they feel free to exercise their freedom to do both. Hence the missing brother.

So we went to a time share condo place and each couple had their own room. Each condo had two bedrooms and a kitchen/living area. We met for home cooked meals and the drinkers didn't drink and the smokers went outside when the urge hit them. When we ate out, they did order a beer for one of the meals. And during the week they occasionally had some wine in their own unit. The beer at the BBQ restaurant was the only "imbibing" I witnessed. The brother who didn't attend is the IFB dude and he didn't want their behavior to taint his testimony.

All that to ask a question. How is their behavior his problem? Eating and drinking with sinners didn't hurt Jesus' reputation so why would it hurt the missing brother?

What's interesting here is the missing brother knew ahead of time he'd  be disrespected if he attended. Really, how hard can it be to abstain from recreational drugs during a family get together?

 

[Ransom]

Look at the context, Ransom. It is not just a matter of eating meat, but meat which would be considered unclean to a Jewish brother or sister.

You are, of course, wrong about this.

"One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables" (Rom. 14:2).  Obviously Paul was well aware that there were some people who were vegetarians by conviction It's easy enough to see that when Paul talks about not eating meat in verse 21, he's probably alluding back to the beginning of his argument - and even if that's not specifically the case, the context does show that eating or abstaining from all meat is within the purview of his teaching on liberty.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Not sure if the "recovering" in your name has to do with alcohol or not,.......

um, no. I was in an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church for 20+ years, I'm in recovery over my fundamentalism,..it's tongue in cheek.

And a simple conclusion we can draw from Scripture is that if the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery not revealed until The Comforter came, then it is impossible to see men being saved by the Gospel under New Covenant conditions in the Old Testament.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, ?My Lord and my God!? That was before the Comforter came.

But if you are interested in discussing the difference between the Old Testament Saint and the New Covenant Born Again Believer please join the discussion "Regeneration."

And from our abuse of Hebrews trying to make "mundane" living a reason for non alcohol partaking, we will definitely  ,(without even knowing what specifically believe) not agree on that issue either.
Your poor hermetical reading of Hebrews will contort what you believe. Hebrews written to Jewish believers who were going back to the old sacrificial system of worship. Hence, much of Hebrews is reflective on the old ceremonial and sacrificial laws of the Old Covenant. You trying to contort them into a behavioral issue is wrong. What Christ did on Calvary was far surpassed in superiority in atoning for sins.
You trying contort Scripture about "mundane,physical living",to put a ban on alcohol is just plain wrong.

Why would I need to prove what is basic to Scripture?

Deuteronomy 14:26  Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice.

Psalm 104: 14 You cause the grass to grow for the livestock
    and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth
15    and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine
    and bread to strengthen man's heart.

Judges 9:13 But the vine said to them, ?Shall I leave my wine that cheers God and men and go hold sway over the trees?

Isaiah 25:6 On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples
    a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine,
    of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

Isaiah 55:1 Come, everyone who thirsts,
    come to the waters;
and he who has no money,
    come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
    without money and without price.

John 2, the Wedding at Cana....Jesus talks about His use of wine in Luke 7,....

So when you say....

You do see a difference between the physical provision of animal sacrifice and the Sacrifice of Christ, right?
You do see a difference between manna from Heaven and the True Bread which came down from Heaven, right?
You do see a difference between the Holy Spirit being with the Old Testament Saint and being in the New Covenant believer, right?
You do see the difference between the Tabernacle/Temple and its priesthood and the Temple of God Christ  established, and it's Great High Priest...right?
Only we, having been given the understanding of the Old Testament Prophecy...understand that the Old Testament "looked forward to the Cross." The Old Testament Saint did not have an understanding of Who Christ was.
Nor, for that matter...did the disciples of Christ until Pentecost:

this makes your argument unclear because you are using what Calvary meant to the forgiveness of sins by Christs work on the cross to a (false) teaching about abstinence. Christ was the fulfillment of the coming of the fulfillment of the OT ceremonial and sacrificial laws.

You miss the point made: we have a directive to maintain self control...

believe it or not, that can be done while drinking.....as the Scriptures I have provided, God doesn't seem to have an issue of partaking.....

So you add alcohol to the gifts of God?
Could you show me that in the New Testament?Scriptures?

See verses provided above.......Especially the Wedding at Cana....

You deny we should have our joy and comfort in God rather than drink? 

I'm saying God said we can do both...again, see verses I provided.

Paul did say...
1  Timothy 5:23
King James Version (KJV)
23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
This seems to imply Paul is instructing Timothy to do something that apparently he likely would not do apart from the advice given, which in itself suggest s that for a Christian taking wine for medicinal purposes was not the norm.

Not really because Paul would have said "it's okay, you're not sinning", which he didn't, because Paul also told Timothy "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,  that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Now when Paul wrote this the New Testament wasn't completed, so what was Paul speaking of? the Old Testament! with God's blessings he gave to all people who obeyed Him, alcohol being one of them.

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Again, nobody is getting drunk or advocating for it, like not over eating or cheating on your spouse. All activities (food and sex) condoned but moderated.

I said
Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day?

Are you seriously going to try to use this statement to say believers have no business judging those who...drink? review his statement above and then...tell Paul that.

Do you actually read the entire section of Scripture before you make decisions on your stances or do you just look for snippets and "proof texts?"  read the entirety of that section!!
Colossians  2 is talking about not being deceived by man made rules,the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body. They have nothing to do with ceasing from sin, it is Christ that saves and makes you a new creature in Christ, as in God told  Ezekiel "And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules"
when we are new creations in Christ, we will not want to do things that displease the Lord. It's possible, I mean, if you are talking total abstinence, Why did Jesus make wine for a wedding?

Holiday weekend is here and I spent waaay too much time here this morning, I'm sure this won't end soon, we'll pick up later

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Look at the context, Ransom. It is not just a matter of eating meat, but meat which would be considered unclean to a Jewish brother or sister.

You are, of course, wrong about this.

"One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables" (Rom. 14:2).  Obviously Paul was well aware that there were some people who were vegetarians by conviction It's easy enough to see that when Paul talks about not eating meat in verse 21, he's probably alluding back to the beginning of his argument - and even if that's not specifically the case, the context does show that eating or abstaining from all meat is within the purview of his teaching on liberty.

The context deals with that which is unclean, Ransom:


Romans 14:14-21
King James Version (KJV)

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

It is the eating of the meat which offends. It is not limited to vegetarians but could include those who ate meat offered to idols, which doesn't impact the meat itself, but, can offend one who sees you eating it.

And since Christians being drunks offends me, does that mean that drunkards should...stop indulging the flesh?




God bless.

 

[Ransom]

Not at all relevant to alcohol use. And eating pork does not alter the mind.

"Altering the mind" is not the issue Paul is addressing in Romans 14:21, or indeed anywhere else in Romans 14.

As I said, I would seek to show the believer that I, and they, have liberty to eat pork, but...
...I cannot do that with alcohol use.

Then your issue is with the Apostle, who puts eating meat and drinking wine on equal footing with respect to "anything that causes your brother to stumble."

I cannot say to a brother or sister "I think we have to make that decision on our own,"

Then again, you are in conflict with Paul, who says "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind" (14:5) with respect to the "opinions" (14:1) that he enumerates in the chapter: eating meat, observing holy days, and drinking wine.

And you still have not given the first reason why someone in our culture...needs to drink alcohol.

I am under no obligation to justify what Scripture approves. Certainly not with by listing "needs," which smacks of the pagan ethic of utilitarianism rather than anything you found in the Scriptures.

As explained above, apples and oranges.

Wrong again. In 14:21, Paul puts eating meat and drinking wine on equal footing with respect to the law of liberty.

You would harass someone who takes a view that Christians do not need to drink alcohol, and have no good reason to.

Do you feel you are being harassed merely because someone's opinion differs with yours? Poor snowflake. Here's a nice "safe space" where you can play with puppies and make all the sad feels go away.

I agree...you are ignoring it.

Said S. T. Ranger, without a single example.

Here is some special pleading: just answer the questions posed to you.

LOL! You sound impatient with me for refusing to answer a question you asked three times in the same post before I would even have an opportunity to see it.

Do you drink alcohol?

On occasion.

What good reason can you give to drink alcohol?

There are four reasons I am aware of that are given in the Scriptures: celebration (Deut. 14:26; (Isa. 25:6; John 2), ceremonial (Lev. 23:13; Num. 18:12; Matt. 26:27-28; 1 Cor. 11:25), medicinal (1 Tim. 5:23), and appreciation (Luke 5:39).

And since the Scriptures are good, I will deem its reasons to be good reasons.

What purpose does it serve?

Celebration, ceremony, appreciation, and medicine.

Do you think it is okay, as another member stated, that it the decision of the believer to use marijuana?
Do you think marijuana use is okay?

Feeble attempt at "divide and conquer" noted.

If "another member" wants to make a case for weed, I'm sure he's capable of fighting his own battles.

My views are not the focus, Ransom,

Give me a break. You put your views on a public forum. You don't get to exempt them from criticism.

 

[Ransom]

The context deals with that which is unclean, Ransom:

The context goes all the way back to verse 1.

 

[subllibrm]

We just got back from a vacation with my wife's siblings. We had a great time catching up and going down memory lane.

My wife is the youngest of seven and six of them made the trip. Prior to her parents death her siblings would all attempt to attend all family events. Those who smoked or drank chose to abstain for mom and dad's sake. Since the death of the parents, they feel free to exercise their freedom to do both. Hence the missing brother.

So we went to a time share condo place and each couple had their own room. Each condo had two bedrooms and a kitchen/living area. We met for home cooked meals and the drinkers didn't drink and the smokers went outside when the urge hit them. When we ate out, they did order a beer for one of the meals. And during the week they occasionally had some wine in their own unit. The beer at the BBQ restaurant was the only "imbibing" I witnessed. The brother who didn't attend is the IFB dude and he didn't want their behavior to taint his testimony.

All that to ask a question. How is their behavior his problem? Eating and drinking with sinners didn't hurt Jesus' reputation so why would it hurt the missing brother?

What's interesting here is the missing brother knew ahead of time he'd  be disrespected if he attended. Really, how hard can it be to abstain from recreational drugs during a family get together?

What drugs?

 

[BibleGal]

The post read the specific drug being consumed for fun is alcohol

Not for thy stomache's sake or infimities but ingested as a recreational drug

 

[subllibrm]

The post read the specific drug being consumed for fun is alcohol

Not for thy stomache's sake or infimities but ingested as a recreational drug

Um, no.

 

[Jubal Sackett]

I will answer your questions:

Do you drink alcohol?  Yep, single malt Scotch, white and red wine.

What good reason can you give to drink alcohol?  Scotch is the drink of my ancestors and I like it. I never have more than one at any one time. Wine enhances well prepared food.

What purpose does it serve?  See above.

Do you think marijuana use is okay? Medical purposes only, same as opiates. I think that it's really stupid to out law marijuana for medical purposes.

Jubal Sackett