Conservativism Without Christianity

[prophet]

Will God save someone, because you pray for them?

Yep... if they are ordained and it is God's timing!

When you pray, do you say, "God, please save so and so..."?

No, I don't.

And I'm honestly interested in this discussion.
I have no malice towards you or anyone else who publishes the glad tidings .

I don't pray for God to save people.

I pray for opportunity to talk to those who He burdens me to pray for.
I pray for laborers to be sent.
I pray for God to guide me to those, who He in His eternal foreknowledge knows, are prepared to receive the Gospel.
I pray that The Spirit use my tongue, my life, etc, for His purpose.... whatever it may be.

Whether He has me to plant, to water, to reap, I am overjoyed to just be a part.

He is in charge of it all, and I'm along for the ride.
I'm not sure why I get a place in His Kingdom, I certainly am no good man. 


Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

 

[prophet]

So it is a type of blown-in insulation hopper, that you are training them on?

Yes. Here is the machine: https://www.insulationmachines.net/cm-2400-insulation-blowers/

I've used similar machines many times.

I like the denim bags, as they aren't as hard on the lungs.

I will take some time looking into your product, because I do several jobs a year in the U.P.

Sent from my EM756 using Tapatalk

 

[FSSL]

I'm not sure why I get a place in His Kingdom, I certainly am no good man.

Which is the point. He gave you the place. It was not based on your will, but on His good pleasure.

Most Christians I know pray correctly that "God will bring salvation to [so and so]." Paul illustrated this, so why can't you?

 

[FSSL]

I will take some time looking into your product, because I do several jobs a year in the U.P.

I have a great, smaller, portable machine. If you are interested in purchasing... I will give you the lowest possible manufacturer-allowed discount and free shipping.

 

[LongGone]

I think, 9 pages in and the point of the OP is proven correct. Instead of turning to God in repentance, we instead turn to our "god" of this world to solve our problems.

Logical fallacy of the excluded middle.

Tarheel... I guess churches who are actively praying and encouraging prayer via prayer guides are not within Recovering's kingdom mandates.

His (and sub's to a slightly lesser extent) only mandate is to simply argue against some fictional stereotype his imagination has conjured up. Reality be damned....

I don't know that I have a mandate. I do have a burden for the church when I see her leadership tacitly accepting or worse defending actions that should be condemned but wont be because the offender is not a Democrat.

And this is not new to Mr. Trump and his ascension to the top. I have been speaking to this since I first noticed that the negative tone (at best) and spiteful vitriol (at worst) of talk radio is becoming a litmus test for American conservative evangelical Christianity. If I suggest that the point can be communicated in a gracious way I am accused of all sorts of collusion with the "libtards".  If I point out a flaw in the policies of Republicans I am accused of being unAmerican. I can trace this back at least as far as the invasion of Iraq and as recently as being told that I must not be reading the right bible if I have a problem with Donald Trump.

When I see people all around me who cannot see any distinction between the Church and the Republican party I am concerned. More than that I am concerned by the leaders of the Church who do not see this or worse, see it but do not consider it a problem. Are we trying to being people into the Kingdom or into the GOP? I only ask because I too am having a hard time seeing a difference.

Jesus is already stumbling block enough and we have added political conformity to the mix. Brethren this should not be and I will continue to say so.

BTW while LongGone, Recovering, Smelling et al are all nice folk, I speak for me and me alone as I understand the application of biblical truth.

You mistake your experience for reality.
i do not personally know of any pastor who has mentioned Obama in a sermon in a mocking way.
I am under no delusion that Republicanism is Christianity...and have never heard that articulated or intimated.

In my experience, the vast majority of evangelicalism does not fit into your extreme notions.
As a Christian, I pray for my government, participate in my government and honor the powers that be...
I fully understand that God is in total control and that we wrestle not against flesh and blood.

But, we live in the reality of the nasty now and now...not some ivory tower.
I try to stay politically informed, vote and participate in my government, especially at the local level.

Where, pray tell oh wise ones, am I going wrong?

Tarheel pushed me on the issue of where he is going wrong. I don't know Tarheel and have never been to his church. I have no way of knowing how comfortable someone with different political views would feel in his church. I would tell him to read less of the right wing publications that distort his views. I know he got his education at Liberty which has traditionally been outspoken on conservative politics so his ranting here on the forum tend to reinforce that background.

I am not sure why he has asked me this twice (once generally and once with an ovation). He knows I think he is wrong and I know he thinks I am wrong and neither of us will lose any sleep over it.

To sum it up Tarheel if you want to fix your wrong way I would suggest you repent and join the Democratic Party? 8)

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I think, 9 pages in and the point of the OP is proven correct. Instead of turning to God in repentance, we instead turn to our "god" of this world to solve our problems.

Logical fallacy of the excluded middle.

Tarheel... I guess churches who are actively praying and encouraging prayer via prayer guides are not within Recovering's kingdom mandates.

His (and sub's to a slightly lesser extent) only mandate is to simply argue against some fictional stereotype his imagination has conjured up. Reality be damned....

I don't know that I have a mandate. I do have a burden for the church when I see her leadership tacitly accepting or worse defending actions that should be condemned but wont be because the offender is not a Democrat.

And this is not new to Mr. Trump and his ascension to the top. I have been speaking to this since I first noticed that the negative tone (at best) and spiteful vitriol (at worst) of talk radio is becoming a litmus test for American conservative evangelical Christianity. If I suggest that the point can be communicated in a gracious way I am accused of all sorts of collusion with the "libtards".  If I point out a flaw in the policies of Republicans I am accused of being unAmerican. I can trace this back at least as far as the invasion of Iraq and as recently as being told that I must not be reading the right bible if I have a problem with Donald Trump.

When I see people all around me who cannot see any distinction between the Church and the Republican party I am concerned. More than that I am concerned by the leaders of the Church who do not see this or worse, see it but do not consider it a problem. Are we trying to being people into the Kingdom or into the GOP? I only ask because I too am having a hard time seeing a difference.

Jesus is already stumbling block enough and we have added political conformity to the mix. Brethren this should not be and I will continue to say so.

BTW while LongGone, Recovering, Smelling et al are all nice folk, I speak for me and me alone as I understand the application of biblical truth.

You mistake your experience for reality.
i do not personally know of any pastor who has mentioned Obama in a sermon in a mocking way.
I am under no delusion that Republicanism is Christianity...and have never heard that articulated or intimated.

In my experience, the vast majority of evangelicalism does not fit into your extreme notions.
As a Christian, I pray for my government, participate in my government and honor the powers that be...
I fully understand that God is in total control and that we wrestle not against flesh and blood.

But, we live in the reality of the nasty now and now...not some ivory tower.
I try to stay politically informed, vote and participate in my government, especially at the local level.

Where, pray tell oh wise ones, am I going wrong?

Tarheel pushed me on the issue of where he is going wrong. I don't know Tarheel and have never been to his church. I have no way of knowing how comfortable someone with different political views would feel in his church. I would tell him to read less of the right wing publications that distort his views. I know he got his education at Liberty which has traditionally been outspoken on conservative politics so his ranting here on the forum tend to reinforce that background.

I am not sure why he has asked me this twice (once generally and once with an ovation). He knows I think he is wrong and I know he thinks I am wrong and neither of us will lose any sleep over it.

To sum it up Tarheel if you want to fix your wrong way I would suggest you repent and join the Democratic Party? 8)

You are a typical democrat supporter. Bait and switch.
I was referring to the specific content of that post.
You & recovering seem to always move the goal posts.

IF I had wanted a sincere critique of anything, you wouldn't be on the short list of who I might ask. You wouldn't be on the long list either....

Do you pray for your political leaders?
Do you vote for those who most agree with your principles?
Did you vote for Obama?
Did you vote for Hillary?

Do you believe abortion is murder?
Do you believe Sodomy is sin?

 

[LongGone]

I think, 9 pages in and the point of the OP is proven correct. Instead of turning to God in repentance, we instead turn to our "god" of this world to solve our problems.

Logical fallacy of the excluded middle.

Tarheel... I guess churches who are actively praying and encouraging prayer via prayer guides are not within Recovering's kingdom mandates.

His (and sub's to a slightly lesser extent) only mandate is to simply argue against some fictional stereotype his imagination has conjured up. Reality be damned....

I don't know that I have a mandate. I do have a burden for the church when I see her leadership tacitly accepting or worse defending actions that should be condemned but wont be because the offender is not a Democrat.

And this is not new to Mr. Trump and his ascension to the top. I have been speaking to this since I first noticed that the negative tone (at best) and spiteful vitriol (at worst) of talk radio is becoming a litmus test for American conservative evangelical Christianity. If I suggest that the point can be communicated in a gracious way I am accused of all sorts of collusion with the "libtards".  If I point out a flaw in the policies of Republicans I am accused of being unAmerican. I can trace this back at least as far as the invasion of Iraq and as recently as being told that I must not be reading the right bible if I have a problem with Donald Trump.

When I see people all around me who cannot see any distinction between the Church and the Republican party I am concerned. More than that I am concerned by the leaders of the Church who do not see this or worse, see it but do not consider it a problem. Are we trying to being people into the Kingdom or into the GOP? I only ask because I too am having a hard time seeing a difference.

Jesus is already stumbling block enough and we have added political conformity to the mix. Brethren this should not be and I will continue to say so.

BTW while LongGone, Recovering, Smelling et al are all nice folk, I speak for me and me alone as I understand the application of biblical truth.

You mistake your experience for reality.
i do not personally know of any pastor who has mentioned Obama in a sermon in a mocking way.
I am under no delusion that Republicanism is Christianity...and have never heard that articulated or intimated.

In my experience, the vast majority of evangelicalism does not fit into your extreme notions.
As a Christian, I pray for my government, participate in my government and honor the powers that be...
I fully understand that God is in total control and that we wrestle not against flesh and blood.

But, we live in the reality of the nasty now and now...not some ivory tower.
I try to stay politically informed, vote and participate in my government, especially at the local level.

Where, pray tell oh wise ones, am I going wrong?

Tarheel pushed me on the issue of where he is going wrong. I don't know Tarheel and have never been to his church. I have no way of knowing how comfortable someone with different political views would feel in his church. I would tell him to read less of the right wing publications that distort his views. I know he got his education at Liberty which has traditionally been outspoken on conservative politics so his ranting here on the forum tend to reinforce that background.

I am not sure why he has asked me this twice (once generally and once with an ovation). He knows I think he is wrong and I know he thinks I am wrong and neither of us will lose any sleep over it.

To sum it up Tarheel if you want to fix your wrong way I would suggest you repent and join the Democratic Party? 8)

You are a typical democrat supporter. Bait and switch.
I was referring to the specific content of that post.
You & recovering seem to always move the goal posts.

IF I had wanted a sincere critique of anything, you wouldn't be on the short list of who I might ask. You wouldn't be on the long list either....

Do you pray for your political leaders?
Do you vote for those who most agree with your principles?
Did you vote for Obama?
Did you vote for Hillary?

Do you believe abortion is murder?
Do you believe Sodomy is sin?

Tarheel....you did not really want to know what I thought. You thought you had made some kind of good point so you pushed the issue.  That is bull that I am moving the goalposts...I am giving you a tongue-in-cheek answer to a question that you did not care what I thought. Generally you are not even in the game let alone moving goalposts because you just post some article that some right wing publication printed.

And don't come back and tell me it was sincere or you would not have used the term "wise ones".

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I think, 9 pages in and the point of the OP is proven correct. Instead of turning to God in repentance, we instead turn to our "god" of this world to solve our problems.

Logical fallacy of the excluded middle.

Tarheel... I guess churches who are actively praying and encouraging prayer via prayer guides are not within Recovering's kingdom mandates.

His (and sub's to a slightly lesser extent) only mandate is to simply argue against some fictional stereotype his imagination has conjured up. Reality be damned....

I don't know that I have a mandate. I do have a burden for the church when I see her leadership tacitly accepting or worse defending actions that should be condemned but wont be because the offender is not a Democrat.

And this is not new to Mr. Trump and his ascension to the top. I have been speaking to this since I first noticed that the negative tone (at best) and spiteful vitriol (at worst) of talk radio is becoming a litmus test for American conservative evangelical Christianity. If I suggest that the point can be communicated in a gracious way I am accused of all sorts of collusion with the "libtards".  If I point out a flaw in the policies of Republicans I am accused of being unAmerican. I can trace this back at least as far as the invasion of Iraq and as recently as being told that I must not be reading the right bible if I have a problem with Donald Trump.

When I see people all around me who cannot see any distinction between the Church and the Republican party I am concerned. More than that I am concerned by the leaders of the Church who do not see this or worse, see it but do not consider it a problem. Are we trying to being people into the Kingdom or into the GOP? I only ask because I too am having a hard time seeing a difference.

Jesus is already stumbling block enough and we have added political conformity to the mix. Brethren this should not be and I will continue to say so.

BTW while LongGone, Recovering, Smelling et al are all nice folk, I speak for me and me alone as I understand the application of biblical truth.

You mistake your experience for reality.
i do not personally know of any pastor who has mentioned Obama in a sermon in a mocking way.
I am under no delusion that Republicanism is Christianity...and have never heard that articulated or intimated.

In my experience, the vast majority of evangelicalism does not fit into your extreme notions.
As a Christian, I pray for my government, participate in my government and honor the powers that be...
I fully understand that God is in total control and that we wrestle not against flesh and blood.

But, we live in the reality of the nasty now and now...not some ivory tower.
I try to stay politically informed, vote and participate in my government, especially at the local level.

Where, pray tell oh wise ones, am I going wrong?

Tarheel pushed me on the issue of where he is going wrong. I don't know Tarheel and have never been to his church. I have no way of knowing how comfortable someone with different political views would feel in his church. I would tell him to read less of the right wing publications that distort his views. I know he got his education at Liberty which has traditionally been outspoken on conservative politics so his ranting here on the forum tend to reinforce that background.

I am not sure why he has asked me this twice (once generally and once with an ovation). He knows I think he is wrong and I know he thinks I am wrong and neither of us will lose any sleep over it.

To sum it up Tarheel if you want to fix your wrong way I would suggest you repent and join the Democratic Party? 8)

You are a typical democrat supporter. Bait and switch.
I was referring to the specific content of that post.
You & recovering seem to always move the goal posts.

IF I had wanted a sincere critique of anything, you wouldn't be on the short list of who I might ask. You wouldn't be on the long list either....

Do you pray for your political leaders?
Do you vote for those who most agree with your principles?
Did you vote for Obama?
Did you vote for Hillary?

Do you believe abortion is murder?
Do you believe Sodomy is sin?

Tarheel....you did not really want to know what I thought. You thought you had made some kind of good point so you pushed the issue.  That is bull that I am moving the goalposts...I am giving you a tongue-in-cheek answer to a question that you did not care what I thought. Generally you are not even in the game let alone moving goalposts because you just post some article that some right wing publication printed.

And don't come back and tell me it was sincere or you would not have used the term "wise ones".

I made no point...just stated the obvious...the truth.

"As a Christian, I pray for my government, participate in my government and honor the powers that be...
I fully understand that God is in total control and that we wrestle not against flesh and blood."

I would think the above statement would not be controversial. It is what I do and believe in regard to politics and government. I would assume even you would find no fault in that practice.

And wise ones was a totally sarcastic comment!

 

[Recovering IFB]

Yeah, how'd that work out for Paul and his Kin?

Successfully. The Gospel went out. He endured the sufferings of Christ. It's not about the numbers who walk down an aisle!

Pssst, I said "if"...

Okay... then why would you not gladly share the gospel, knowing full-well, that God will use the dissemination of it for His own purposes? I don't need to gain anything from giving the gospel.

Paul gave the gospel regardless of man's will. It is all about God's will.

Exactly.

When we share the Gospel, we are simply obeying His command.
Some here don't have a clue as to who Jesus or what the gospel is...
Some others still have the old X-er mentality that we have to 'win them and count them'.

Scripturally, one plants, another waters but God always gives the increase according to the good pleasure of His will...

And I would add to this that God said that His Word would not come back to him void. It has two effects; either it gives life or it condemns. Either they repent or they don't. Besides if you think it's man's decision. Why do you waste your breath praying to God? According to you, He has nothing to do with it.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Yeah, how'd that work out for Paul and his Kin?

Successfully. The Gospel went out. He endured the sufferings of Christ. It's not about the numbers who walk down an aisle!

Pssst, I said "if"...

Okay... then why would you not gladly share the gospel, knowing full-well, that God will use the dissemination of it for His own purposes? I don't need to gain anything from giving the gospel.

Paul gave the gospel regardless of man's will. It is all about God's will.

Exactly.

When we share the Gospel, we are simply obeying His command.
Some here don't have a clue as to who Jesus or what the gospel is...
Some others still have the old X-er mentality that we have to 'win them and count them'.

Scripturally, one plants, another waters but God always gives the increase according to the good pleasure of His will...

And I would add to this that God said that His Word would not come back to him void. It has two effects; either it gives life or it condemns. Either they repent or they don't. Besides if you think it's man's decision. Why do you waste your breath praying to God? According to you, He has nothing to do with it.

Was this addressed to prophet?
You quoted me, but I think we agree on this.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Do you pray for your political leaders?
Do you vote for those who most agree with your principles?
Did you vote for Obama?
Did you vote for Hillary?

Do you believe abortion is murder?
Do you believe Sodomy is sin?

I don't pray for leaders in the fact that can pass certain policies(Republican/Democratc) I pray they submit to God and obey Him(Psalm 2)  and the through that they'd would give freedom back to the people, get rid of unConstitutional/unBiblical laws,government programs etc.
I haven't voted in the last few elections due to the fact I couldn't support any of the individuals who didn't share my worldview.
And yes abortion is murder. When a candidate stands up and pproposes such a law that both mother and Doctor would be charged with murder, then I would strongly support him/her.
And yes, sodomy is sin.
What about you? What basis do you vote on? Is it political? Does your standard derive from Scripture? Or more on your personal beliefs?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Do you pray for your political leaders?
Do you vote for those who most agree with your principles?
Did you vote for Obama?
Did you vote for Hillary?

Do you believe abortion is murder?
Do you believe Sodomy is sin?

I don't pray for leaders in the fact that can pass certain policies(Republican/Democratc) I pray they submit to God and obey Him(Psalm 2)  and the through that they'd would give freedom back to the people, get rid of unConstitutional/unBiblical laws,government programs etc.
I haven't voted in the last few elections due to the fact I couldn't support any of the individuals who didn't share my worldview.
And yes abortion is murder. When a candidate stands up and pproposes such a law that both mother and Doctor would be charged with murder, then I would strongly support him/her.
And yes, sodomy is sin.
What about you? What basis do you vote on? Is it political? Does your standard derive from Scripture? Or more on your personal beliefs?

I believe God is sovereign and that the heart of the king is in His hand.
I pray for and encourage those I influence to pray for our leaders, no matter who they are or to which party they belong. God told Jeremiah to seek the welfare of the city where He had been exiled and to pray to the LORD on its behalf, because as it prospered, he would prosper.

I vote based on principles, biblical and political that I believe.
I vote based on what the candidate says he or she stands for...its all I have to go on. I vote in every election for I personally consider it a right and a privilege.

Knowing that you believe in Christian Reconstructionism helps me understand where you get your odd (to me) belief and practice.

 

[LongGone]

I think, 9 pages in and the point of the OP is proven correct. Instead of turning to God in repentance, we instead turn to our "god" of this world to solve our problems.

Logical fallacy of the excluded middle.

Tarheel... I guess churches who are actively praying and encouraging prayer via prayer guides are not within Recovering's kingdom mandates.

His (and sub's to a slightly lesser extent) only mandate is to simply argue against some fictional stereotype his imagination has conjured up. Reality be damned....

I don't know that I have a mandate. I do have a burden for the church when I see her leadership tacitly accepting or worse defending actions that should be condemned but wont be because the offender is not a Democrat.

And this is not new to Mr. Trump and his ascension to the top. I have been speaking to this since I first noticed that the negative tone (at best) and spiteful vitriol (at worst) of talk radio is becoming a litmus test for American conservative evangelical Christianity. If I suggest that the point can be communicated in a gracious way I am accused of all sorts of collusion with the "libtards".  If I point out a flaw in the policies of Republicans I am accused of being unAmerican. I can trace this back at least as far as the invasion of Iraq and as recently as being told that I must not be reading the right bible if I have a problem with Donald Trump.

When I see people all around me who cannot see any distinction between the Church and the Republican party I am concerned. More than that I am concerned by the leaders of the Church who do not see this or worse, see it but do not consider it a problem. Are we trying to being people into the Kingdom or into the GOP? I only ask because I too am having a hard time seeing a difference.

Jesus is already stumbling block enough and we have added political conformity to the mix. Brethren this should not be and I will continue to say so.

BTW while LongGone, Recovering, Smelling et al are all nice folk, I speak for me and me alone as I understand the application of biblical truth.

You mistake your experience for reality.
i do not personally know of any pastor who has mentioned Obama in a sermon in a mocking way.
I am under no delusion that Republicanism is Christianity...and have never heard that articulated or intimated.

In my experience, the vast majority of evangelicalism does not fit into your extreme notions.
As a Christian, I pray for my government, participate in my government and honor the powers that be...
I fully understand that God is in total control and that we wrestle not against flesh and blood.

But, we live in the reality of the nasty now and now...not some ivory tower.
I try to stay politically informed, vote and participate in my government, especially at the local level.

Where, pray tell oh wise ones, am I going wrong?

Tarheel pushed me on the issue of where he is going wrong. I don't know Tarheel and have never been to his church. I have no way of knowing how comfortable someone with different political views would feel in his church. I would tell him to read less of the right wing publications that distort his views. I know he got his education at Liberty which has traditionally been outspoken on conservative politics so his ranting here on the forum tend to reinforce that background.

I am not sure why he has asked me this twice (once generally and once with an ovation). He knows I think he is wrong and I know he thinks I am wrong and neither of us will lose any sleep over it.

To sum it up Tarheel if you want to fix your wrong way I would suggest you repent and join the Democratic Party? 8)

You are a typical democrat supporter. Bait and switch.
I was referring to the specific content of that post.
You & recovering seem to always move the goal posts.

IF I had wanted a sincere critique of anything, you wouldn't be on the short list of who I might ask. You wouldn't be on the long list either....

Do you pray for your political leaders?
Do you vote for those who most agree with your principles?
Did you vote for Obama?
Did you vote for Hillary?

Do you believe abortion is murder?
Do you believe Sodomy is sin?

Tarheel....you did not really want to know what I thought. You thought you had made some kind of good point so you pushed the issue.  That is bull that I am moving the goalposts...I am giving you a tongue-in-cheek answer to a question that you did not care what I thought. Generally you are not even in the game let alone moving goalposts because you just post some article that some right wing publication printed.

And don't come back and tell me it was sincere or you would not have used the term "wise ones".

I made no point...just stated the obvious...the truth.

"As a Christian, I pray for my government, participate in my government and honor the powers that be...
I fully understand that God is in total control and that we wrestle not against flesh and blood."

I would think the above statement would not be controversial. It is what I do and believe in regard to politics and government. I would assume even you would find no fault in that practice.

And wise ones was a totally sarcastic comment!

I have no problem with your statement. But why follow it up with the question and then goad me on standing ovation to answer.

 

[Recovering IFB]

And we will continue to disagree here. I see our branch of government as curropt and ungodly. All will fail miserably. Especially when the Republican Party has the church in its back pocket. Maybe it will prove me wrong and abolish abortion in the next two years. And as odd as you see me, I see you the same. I understand that.  And I don't say that in an aggressive manner.  But I cannot accept  a government that does not submit to God and continually passes evil laws and backs the enemies of the church.

 

[prophet]

I'm not sure why I get a place in His Kingdom, I certainly am no good man.

Which is the point. He gave you the place. It was not based on your will, but on His good pleasure.

Most Christians I know pray correctly that "God will bring salvation to [so and so]." Paul illustrated this, so why can't you?

And I illustrated : where that got Paul.

Eventually, he gave up even trying to reach them, because they were incorrigible.

He, wisely, went after those who were willing to receive his witness.

earnestly contend

 

[FSSL]

And I illustrated : where that got Paul. Eventually, he gave up even trying to reach them, because they were incorrigible. He, wisely, went after those who were willing to receive his witness.

earnestly contend

Whether people accept or reject the gospel, that is none of our concern. Paul obeyed the gospel.

You have NO IDEA as to who will willing receive the witness. You do not know how the gospel will be received until you give it. Why? Because it is God's work.

You could find no more incorrigible people than those on Crete and in Corinth. YET,  Paul walked into those places and people were saved.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I think, 9 pages in and the point of the OP is proven correct. Instead of turning to God in repentance, we instead turn to our "god" of this world to solve our problems.

Logical fallacy of the excluded middle.

Tarheel... I guess churches who are actively praying and encouraging prayer via prayer guides are not within Recovering's kingdom mandates.

His (and sub's to a slightly lesser extent) only mandate is to simply argue against some fictional stereotype his imagination has conjured up. Reality be damned....

I don't know that I have a mandate. I do have a burden for the church when I see her leadership tacitly accepting or worse defending actions that should be condemned but wont be because the offender is not a Democrat.

And this is not new to Mr. Trump and his ascension to the top. I have been speaking to this since I first noticed that the negative tone (at best) and spiteful vitriol (at worst) of talk radio is becoming a litmus test for American conservative evangelical Christianity. If I suggest that the point can be communicated in a gracious way I am accused of all sorts of collusion with the "libtards".  If I point out a flaw in the policies of Republicans I am accused of being unAmerican. I can trace this back at least as far as the invasion of Iraq and as recently as being told that I must not be reading the right bible if I have a problem with Donald Trump.

When I see people all around me who cannot see any distinction between the Church and the Republican party I am concerned. More than that I am concerned by the leaders of the Church who do not see this or worse, see it but do not consider it a problem. Are we trying to being people into the Kingdom or into the GOP? I only ask because I too am having a hard time seeing a difference.

Jesus is already stumbling block enough and we have added political conformity to the mix. Brethren this should not be and I will continue to say so.

BTW while LongGone, Recovering, Smelling et al are all nice folk, I speak for me and me alone as I understand the application of biblical truth.

You mistake your experience for reality.
i do not personally know of any pastor who has mentioned Obama in a sermon in a mocking way.
I am under no delusion that Republicanism is Christianity...and have never heard that articulated or intimated.

In my experience, the vast majority of evangelicalism does not fit into your extreme notions.
As a Christian, I pray for my government, participate in my government and honor the powers that be...
I fully understand that God is in total control and that we wrestle not against flesh and blood.

But, we live in the reality of the nasty now and now...not some ivory tower.
I try to stay politically informed, vote and participate in my government, especially at the local level.

Where, pray tell oh wise ones, am I going wrong?

Tarheel pushed me on the issue of where he is going wrong. I don't know Tarheel and have never been to his church. I have no way of knowing how comfortable someone with different political views would feel in his church. I would tell him to read less of the right wing publications that distort his views. I know he got his education at Liberty which has traditionally been outspoken on conservative politics so his ranting here on the forum tend to reinforce that background.

I am not sure why he has asked me this twice (once generally and once with an ovation). He knows I think he is wrong and I know he thinks I am wrong and neither of us will lose any sleep over it.

To sum it up Tarheel if you want to fix your wrong way I would suggest you repent and join the Democratic Party? 8)

You are a typical democrat supporter. Bait and switch.
I was referring to the specific content of that post.
You & recovering seem to always move the goal posts.

IF I had wanted a sincere critique of anything, you wouldn't be on the short list of who I might ask. You wouldn't be on the long list either....

Do you pray for your political leaders?
Do you vote for those who most agree with your principles?
Did you vote for Obama?
Did you vote for Hillary?

Do you believe abortion is murder?
Do you believe Sodomy is sin?

Tarheel....you did not really want to know what I thought. You thought you had made some kind of good point so you pushed the issue.  That is bull that I am moving the goalposts...I am giving you a tongue-in-cheek answer to a question that you did not care what I thought. Generally you are not even in the game let alone moving goalposts because you just post some article that some right wing publication printed.

And don't come back and tell me it was sincere or you would not have used the term "wise ones".

I made no point...just stated the obvious...the truth.

"As a Christian, I pray for my government, participate in my government and honor the powers that be...
I fully understand that God is in total control and that we wrestle not against flesh and blood."

I would think the above statement would not be controversial. It is what I do and believe in regard to politics and government. I would assume even you would find no fault in that practice.

And wise ones was a totally sarcastic comment!

I have no problem with your statement. But why follow it up with the question and then goad me on standing ovation to answer.

To make the point that, arguing aside, we all basically do the same thing.
Vote according to our principles.
Had you originally said you have no problem with the statement, I would not have so responded.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

And we will continue to disagree here. I see our branch of government as curropt and ungodly. All will fail miserably. Especially when the Republican Party has the church in its back pocket. Maybe it will prove me wrong and abolish abortion in the next two years. And as odd as you see me, I see you the same. I understand that.  And I don't say that in an aggressive manner.  But I cannot accept  a government that does not submit to God and continually passes evil laws and backs the enemies of the church.

The main problem I see with your position is that the government governs, regardless of whether or not you 'accept it' (whatever that means). We do not live in some ivory tower, we live in a real, sin cursed, imperfect world.

 

[Recovering IFB]

The main problem I see with your position is that the government governs, regardless of whether or not you 'accept it' (whatever that means).

So, would you make the same argument if you were a resident of Sodom? How about Babylon? San Francisco?
Or do you believe when Jesus said that we are to teach the nations "obey everything I have commanded you." Do you really believe that God can transform a people? I think you do because you have been telling me that you pray four your leaders. If you don't, then why are you praying? for selfish reasons? or are you praying for God's will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven?
Do you think government  should obey  God? (read Psalm 2; Psalm 72 8-11) isnt the government on His shoulders? And if they are obeying God, what is their standard for rule?

We do not live in some ivory tower, we live in a real, sin cursed, imperfect world.

And your point? what is God's purpose in it then?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The main problem I see with your position is that the government governs, regardless of whether or not you 'accept it' (whatever that means).

So, would you make the same argument if you were a resident of Sodom? How about Babylon? San Francisco?
Or do you believe when Jesus said that we are to teach the nations "obey everything I have commanded you." Do you really believe that God can transform a people? I think you do because you have been telling me that you pray four your leaders. If you don't, then why are you praying? for selfish reasons? or are you praying for God's will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven?
Do you think government  should obey  God? (read Psalm 2; Psalm 72 8-11) isnt the government on His shoulders? And if they are obeying God, what is their standard for rule?

We do not live in some ivory tower, we live in a real, sin cursed, imperfect world.

And your point? what is God's purpose in it then?

The answer to your questions is to me self evident.
What were the Jews told to do during the Babylonian captivity?
To pray for the city if their exile.

But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare. Jeremiah 29:7

Daniel 2:20-23
Daniel answered and said: ?Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, to whom belong wisdom and might. He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding; he reveals deep and hidden things; he knows what is in the darkness, and the light dwells with him. To you, O God of my fathers, I give thanks and praise, for you have given me wisdom and might, and have now made known to me what we asked of you, for you have made known to us the king's matter.?


How did the early church treat the pagan Roman government?
They prayed for those in authority and 'honored the king'.
All the while praying Thy kingdom come.

1 Timothy 2:1-4
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

1 Timothy 2:1-15
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, ...

1 Peter 2:17
Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.