Performance based 'Christianity'.

[subllibrm]

My daughter was told by a camp leader that she had "disappointed God" because she took all of her campers with her to take a girl to the nurse. All because it was after curfew and she hadn't gotten his permission. He didn't ask for an explanation (yes there was a good one) just made "disobeying" him an issue of her standing with God.

I will say that it was after his heart attack and an undiagnosed (at the time) stroke, so that may have had something to do with it. I hope so be cause I can't get my head around that kind of thinking.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

This has been an unusual thread....basically because it lacks the usual vitriol on the fighting forum. I appreciate the thoughtful answers and find very little I can't at least see your point and much I agree with.

It seems that PBC has...in some of our experiences...actually been preached from the pulpit as truth. In order to be right with God, you must perform certain minimum requirements. That, I can totally see is perverted and performance based 'Christianity'.

It also seems that some think the motivation behind the action or performance is the key to determining PBC. It seems to me that would usually involve making a judgement as to someone else's motives. To say that I do ________because I love Christ but someone else does _______ because they think it gives them brownie points with God. That is a judgement call.

I totally agree that there is nothing I can do to cause Him to love me more and nothing I can do to make Him love me less. However, there are things I do that would harm my relationship with Him as opposed to my position in Him. And I think there is a sowing and reaping as far as being blessed by Him.

However, the bottom line in every case is the motivation behind the deed...heart attitude.

Where am I going wrong?

 

[T-Bone]

This has been an unusual thread....basically because it lacks the usual vitriol on the fighting forum. I appreciate the thoughtful answers and find very little I can't at least see your point and much I agree with.

It seems that PBC has...in some of our experiences...actually been preached from the pulpit as truth. In order to be right with God, you must perform certain minimum requirements. That, I can totally see is perverted and performance based 'Christianity'.

It also seems that some think the motivation behind the action or performance is the key to determining PBC. It seems to me that would usually involve making a judgement as to someone else's motives. To say that I do ________because I love Christ but someone else does _______ because they think it gives them brownie points with God. That is a judgement call.

I totally agree that there is nothing I can do to cause Him to love me more and nothing I can do to make Him love me less. However, there are things I do that would harm my relationship with Him as opposed to my position in Him. And I think there is a sowing and reaping as far as being blessed by Him.

However, the bottom line in every case is the motivation behind the deed...heart attitude.

Where am I going wrong?

Sounds good to me.

 

[subllibrm]

This has been an unusual thread....basically because it lacks the usual vitriol on the fighting forum. I appreciate the thoughtful answers and find very little I can't at least see your point and much I agree with.

It seems that PBC has...in some of our experiences...actually been preached from the pulpit as truth. In order to be right with God, you must perform certain minimum requirements. That, I can totally see is perverted and performance based 'Christianity'.

It also seems that some think the motivation behind the action or performance is the key to determining PBC. It seems to me that would usually involve making a judgement as to someone else's motives. To say that I do ________because I love Christ but someone else does _______ because they think it gives them brownie points with God. That is a judgement call.

I totally agree that there is nothing I can do to cause Him to love me more and nothing I can do to make Him love me less. However, there are things I do that would harm my relationship with Him as opposed to my position in Him. And I think there is a sowing and reaping as far as being blessed by Him.

However, the bottom line in every case is the motivation behind the deed...heart attitude.

Where am I going wrong?

I am with you brother.

I have enough to do keeping my own eyes on Him to spend time wringing my hands over whether someone else is walking well with Him.

 

[Mathew Ward]

I appreciate the answers so far and in agreement with most I have read.  I would like to add another dimension of "Performance based Christianity", and it has to do with the love of God.  I have heard it inferred and even outright stated by some preachers that if you don't act or look a certain way, God doesn't love you as much as He would if you acted and looked differently (differently usually set by the speaker).  God's love is perfect and does not change based on our performance.

God's love is not limited in any way based upon our performance - but His blessing certainly is. And to preach such is not to abuse either the Scriptures or God's people.

I have no problem with your statement...but would add not merely performance, but performance or works with a right heart based in faith.

I think there is the truth of sowing and reaping however I also think that the Father in Heaven who provided salvation for us, not because of our performance but because of His grace will freely give us all things (Rom 8:32).

 

[T-Bone]

I appreciate the answers so far and in agreement with most I have read.  I would like to add another dimension of "Performance based Christianity", and it has to do with the love of God.  I have heard it inferred and even outright stated by some preachers that if you don't act or look a certain way, God doesn't love you as much as He would if you acted and looked differently (differently usually set by the speaker).  God's love is perfect and does not change based on our performance.

God's love is not limited in any way based upon our performance - but His blessing certainly is. And to preach such is not to abuse either the Scriptures or God's people.

I have no problem with your statement...but would add not merely performance, but performance or works with a right heart based in faith.

I think there is the truth of sowing and reaping however I also think that the Father in Heaven who provided salvation for us, not because of our performance but because of His grace will freely give us all things (Rom 8:32).

Yes He did!

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I appreciate the answers so far and in agreement with most I have read.  I would like to add another dimension of "Performance based Christianity", and it has to do with the love of God.  I have heard it inferred and even outright stated by some preachers that if you don't act or look a certain way, God doesn't love you as much as He would if you acted and looked differently (differently usually set by the speaker).  God's love is perfect and does not change based on our performance.

God's love is not limited in any way based upon our performance - but His blessing certainly is. And to preach such is not to abuse either the Scriptures or God's people.

I have no problem with your statement...but would add not merely performance, but performance or works with a right heart based in faith.

I think there is the truth of sowing and reaping however I also think that the Father in Heaven who provided salvation for us, not because of our performance but because of His grace will freely give us all things (Rom 8:32).

I think that sowing and reaping is mostly presented in the context of the consequences of sin and disobedience. While I do not believe any way in prosperity theology, I do believe that a life of obedience is far superior to a life of disobedience....to Gods principles. For instance, if I never use drugs, I will never suffer the consequences of drug use...physically, emotionally or relationally.

Would you say, in that context, that my abstaining from getting drunk because I believe drunkeness is sinful would be performance based Christianity?

Or would a lady who believes wearing pants is sinful (and therefore refuses to wear pants) be practicing performance based Christianity?

I would assume your answer to be no, but....

 

[Mathew Ward]

I appreciate the answers so far and in agreement with most I have read.  I would like to add another dimension of "Performance based Christianity", and it has to do with the love of God.  I have heard it inferred and even outright stated by some preachers that if you don't act or look a certain way, God doesn't love you as much as He would if you acted and looked differently (differently usually set by the speaker).  God's love is perfect and does not change based on our performance.

God's love is not limited in any way based upon our performance - but His blessing certainly is. And to preach such is not to abuse either the Scriptures or God's people.

I have no problem with your statement...but would add not merely performance, but performance or works with a right heart based in faith.

I think there is the truth of sowing and reaping however I also think that the Father in Heaven who provided salvation for us, not because of our performance but because of His grace will freely give us all things (Rom 8:32).

I think that sowing and reaping is mostly presented in the context of the consequences of sin and disobedience. While I do not believe any way in prosperity theology, I do believe that a life of obedience is far superior to a life of disobedience....to Gods principles. For instance, if I never use drugs, I will never suffer the consequences of drug use...physically, emotionally or relationally.

Would you say, in that context, that my abstaining from getting drunk because I believe drunkeness is sinful would be performance based Christianity?

Or would a lady who believes wearing pants is sinful (and therefore refuses to wear pants) be practicing performance based Christianity?

I would assume your answer to be no, but....

The way you have presented these 2 scenarios I would say no.

If the lady is wearing a dress to be prospered (blessed) by God then it would be a yes to PBC.

 

[Fresh Air]

If the lady is wearing a dress to be prospered (blessed) by God then it would be a yes to PBC.

This is exactly where PBC (to use your convenient abbreviation) as a pejorative loses me... By definition, we are supposed to be obedient so God will bless us. That isn't a bad thing. 

 

[rsc2a]

No. We are supposed to be obedient to God because it's the right thing to do. Blessing has nothing to do with it.

 

[Fresh Air]

No. We are supposed to be obedient to God because it's the right thing to do. Blessing has nothing to do with it.

Ok. I worded what I said pooly b/c I completely agree that we are supposed to obey God b/c He told us to not in order to get something from Him. But having said that, how I live has direct bearing on how God treats me, and if I want that blessing in my life I am supposed to perform (in the vernacular of this thread). Entirely too often I've heard people assert that all of God's blessings are unconditional. Yes, some of them are. But when I take the position that all of them are then practically it no longer matters how I live - God will either pour out His favor on me or He won't and it is entirely willy-nilly.

That's wrong, and the attitude that flows from it (it doesn't matter how I live/perform so to speak) is wrong also. It does matter how I live. God blesses right performance done in faith with a right heart.

 

[rsc2a]

He "blessed" the Twelve with poverty and murder. But go ahead and keep spewing prosperity crap.

 

[Fresh Air]

He "blessed" the Twelve with poverty and murder. But go ahead and keep spewing prosperity crap.

There is misunderstanding someone which I occasionally do of course. Then there is intentionally misunderstanding and misrepresenting someone. That's more like what you do...

If you think I'm for the prosperity Gospel you have a hole in your head big enough to drive a mack truck through. If you think I think being blessed means persecution never happens you are likewise purposely mistaken. I've got hundreds of sermons online. For crying out loud, I even dealt with this extensively in my book. The prosperity gospel is an devilish fraud.

...and to maintain that God blesses people conditionally is nowhere near the same thing.

 

[Mathew Ward]

If the lady is wearing a dress to be prospered (blessed) by God then it would be a yes to PBC.

This is exactly where PBC (to use your convenient abbreviation) as a pejorative loses me... By definition, we are supposed to be obedient so God will bless us. That isn't a bad thing.

I thought we were suppose to be obedient because we love Him (John 14:15). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

Since He has given me Jesus Christ (not because of my obedience, but because of His grace) will He not freely give us all things (Romans 8:32)?

Nothing to do with me, all to do with Him!

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

He "blessed" the Twelve with poverty and murder. But go ahead and keep spewing prosperity crap.

There is misunderstanding someone which I occasionally do of course. Then there is intentionally misunderstanding and misrepresenting someone. That's more like what you do...

If you think I'm for the prosperity Gospel you have a hole in your head big enough to drive a mack truck through. If you think I think being blessed means persecution never happens you are likewise purposely mistaken. I've got hundreds of sermons online. For crying out loud, I even dealt with this extensively in my book. The prosperity gospel is an devilish fraud.

...and to maintain that God blesses people conditionally is nowhere near the same thing.

That is r2's modus operandi here...IMO!

Plus the fact that we are told that "whom the Lord loves He chastens/disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives” seems to infer...flat out say...that God does look for obedience in His children.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

If the lady is wearing a dress to be prospered (blessed) by God then it would be a yes to PBC.

This is exactly where PBC (to use your convenient abbreviation) as a pejorative loses me... By definition, we are supposed to be obedient so God will bless us. That isn't a bad thing.

I thought we were suppose to be obedient because we love Him (John 14:15). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

Since He has given me Jesus Christ (not because of my obedience, but because of His grace) will He not freely give us all things (Romans 8:32)?

Nothing to do with me, all to do with Him!

Yes.

 

[rsc2a]

He "blessed" the Twelve with poverty and murder. But go ahead and keep spewing prosperity crap.

There is misunderstanding someone which I occasionally do of course. Then there is intentionally misunderstanding and misrepresenting someone. That's more like what you do...

If you think I'm for the prosperity Gospel you have a hole in your head big enough to drive a mack truck through. If you think I think being blessed means persecution never happens you are likewise purposely mistaken. I've got hundreds of sermons online. For crying out loud, I even dealt with this extensively in my book. The prosperity gospel is an devilish fraud.

...and to maintain that God blesses people conditionally is nowhere near the same thing.

But having said that, how I live has direct bearing on how God treats me, and if I want that blessing in my life I am supposed to perform (in the vernacular of this thread). - TB

^^^ Prosperity crap.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

He "blessed" the Twelve with poverty and murder. But go ahead and keep spewing prosperity crap.

You beat me to it. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

No. We are supposed to be obedient to God because it's the right thing to do. Blessing has nothing to do with it.

Ok. I worded what I said pooly b/c I completely agree that we are supposed to obey God b/c He told us to not in order to get something from Him. But having said that, how I live has direct bearing on how God treats me, and if I want that blessing in my life I am supposed to perform (in the vernacular of this thread). Entirely too often I've heard people assert that all of God's blessings are unconditional. Yes, some of them are. But when I take the position that all of them are then practically it no longer matters how I live - God will either pour out His favor on me or He won't and it is entirely willy-nilly.

That's wrong, and the attitude that flows from it (it doesn't matter how I live/perform so to speak) is wrong also. It does matter how I live. God blesses right performance done in faith with a right heart.

This is a tempered ALAYMAN philosophical view.  His view is that if you aren't working hard to be a good boy for God, then you must be a hard drinking, pot-smoking, heroin-addicted, orgy-participating, licentious maggot.  Okay, I'm exaggerating.  Forget about the pot smoking.

The only thing you've done is flip it over and say that it takes working hard to be a good boy for God in order to be blessed.  And then you tack on a mild version of ALAYMANology -- the alternative is a bad attitude and no blessings. 

One obeys God because the Spirit moves one to do so, and it is the right thing to do. 

Go ahead and work for blessings in this world.  There will come a day when you find out what your work was worth.

Unless the Lord builds the house,
They labor in vain who build it;
Unless the Lord guards the city,
The watchman stays awake in vain.
2 It is vain for you to rise up early,
To sit up late,
To eat the bread of sorrows;
For so He gives His beloved sleep.

the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[sword]

No. We are supposed to be obedient to God because it's the right thing to do. Blessing has nothing to do with it.

Ok. I worded what I said pooly b/c I completely agree that we are supposed to obey God b/c He told us to not in order to get something from Him. But having said that, how I live has direct bearing on how God treats me, and if I want that blessing in my life I am supposed to perform (in the vernacular of this thread). Entirely too often I've heard people assert that all of God's blessings are unconditional. Yes, some of them are. But when I take the position that all of them are then practically it no longer matters how I live - God will either pour out His favor on me or He won't and it is entirely willy-nilly.

That's wrong, and the attitude that flows from it (it doesn't matter how I live/perform so to speak) is wrong also. It does matter how I live. God blesses right performance done in faith with a right heart.

This is a tempered ALAYMAN philosophical view.  His view is that if you aren't working hard to be a good boy for God, then you must be a hard drinking, pot-smoking, heroin-addicted, orgy-participating, licentious maggot.  Okay, I'm exaggerating.  Forget about the pot smoking.

The only thing you've done is flip it over and say that it takes working hard to be a good boy for God in order to be blessed.  And then you tack on a mild version of ALAYMANology -- the alternative is a bad attitude and no blessings. 

One obeys God because the Spirit moves one to do so, and it is the right thing to do. 

Go ahead and work for blessings in this world.  There will come a day when you find out what your work was worth.

Clearly being obedient does not ensure prosperity (i.e. Job). Job was chosen for hardship because he was just & brought God glory.
Some cannot be used of God because they refuse to obey him or lack humility (i.e. King Saul).
Some are protected solely because someone else intercedes for them (i.e. Lot).
In Deuteronomy 30 we see God promised to bless his people if they would hearken to his word & to obey.
Sometimes the wicked seem to be blessed, at least for a season, as illustrated in Psalms 73

I think God is pleased when we do right & when we attempt to serve him. I think the problem is when others try to tell you how God wants us to serve him. It’s up to each of us to determine, using the bible & our relationship with God, what he wants from us.

I don't think any of us would have a problem with someone dressing a certain way or ministering & serving others in a specific way because they feel that’s what God wants them to do. The problem comes in when others want to decide what Gods what’s for you. When someone else decides how you should dress & where you should go & what you should & should not do.

I choose to live & serve the way I do because I believe it is what I have been called to. I live the way I do because that’s what God impressed upon me. I also respect others who have different standards & serve in different ways & I assume that is how they have been directed by God.