Performance based 'Christianity'.

[Ransom]

Exactly!  I've heard people say "If you're not X-ing, don't expect God to answer your prayers" (fill in X for yourself).

Paging Vince . . .

 

[Binaca Chugger]

We have some very different ideas of PBC on this forum.  Some claim it is doing anything for God, others think it is using God as a genie, others think it is legalism.  Very different. 

I would define PBC in the IFB as accepting grace for salvation, but denying the power thereof for the Christian life. 

It is difficult to show this to the IFB, because they are so against works salvation and refuse to accept the truth of their works-based life.  However, it does show itself in many forms.  These may be:
- Three to Thrive, read your Bible, go soulwinning and pray for all your troubles to go away.
- You must work harder and try more in order to not disappoint your Savior.
- If you sin, it is because you have not strived hard enough against sin.
- I did more than you did.
- You must XYZ in order to be right with God.
- earning God's favor
- Proving to God through some method that you are deserving of His "Fulness Power"
- etc.

You get the idea.  The problem with this line of thinking is that it denies the Gospel's significance for your every day life. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Recently, I was talking with an IFB who stated about a church in a nearby town: "They aren't like us."  Of course, this was a derogatory comment.  Bear in mind, they have the same KJV, same doctrines, same system, same Christian school curriculum, same, same, same, same.  I asked what he thought was different.  The Response:  "They don't run busses."  Yes, they do.  "Well, they don't bring in as many as they could."

And therein lies the difference.  Pride.  I am better than them because I have more numbers.  PBC.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I was at a conference this weekend when I heard a good statement concerning church methodology.

"Be careful not to let one way, become the ONLY way which will then become GOD's way."

Our methods that we discover and may be able to support with Scripture are still our methods.  Be willing to accept the independence of other churches and even other Christians.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Surely you believe that God will treat His disobedient children differently than He treats the obedient children, right?

No, not really, not if you mean God blesses his obedient children but doesn't bless disobedient children.

But if he means that God will discipline His disobedient children, he is correct, as Hebrews 12 makes very clear.

Yes, but you have no idea what that discipline entails. 

If God cursed and blessed based on behavior, I would assume God would have struck down people like Robert Tilton with multiple lightning bolts by now.  Yet there he is, knowingly telling lies about God and making gobs of money doing it.  I bet if you asked him, he'd say he was blessed by God (if he even believes there is a God). 

 

[Fresh Air]

It is difficult to show this to the IFB, because they are so against works salvation and refuse to accept the truth of their works-based life.  However, it does show itself in many forms.  These may be:
- Three to Thrive, read your Bible, go soulwinning and pray for all your troubles to go away.
- You must work harder and try more in order to not disappoint your Savior.
- If you sin, it is because you have not strived hard enough against sin.
- I did more than you did.
- You must XYZ in order to be right with God.
- earning God's favor
- Proving to God through some method that you are deserving of His "Fulness Power"
- etc.

You get the idea.  The problem with this line of thinking is that it denies the Gospel's significance for your every day life.

Ok. I'll bite for a moment.

- Three to Thrive, read your Bible, go soulwinning and pray for all your troubles to go away.
- You must work harder and try more in order to not disappoint your Savior.
- If you sin, it is because you have not strived hard enough against sin.
- I did more than you did.
- You must XYZ in order to be right with God.
- earning God's favor
- Proving to God through some method that you are deserving of His "Fulness Power"

...each of those I bolded is true, scripturally true, SOME of the time. While that is true we must also remember that ALL of the time it is God's grace in us that enables us to serve Him satisfactorily. Thus, while it is ALWAYS His grace that enables us it is also true that SOMETIMES we must perform something in order to please Him.

I think that is where the balance lies.

 

[Mathew Ward]

It is difficult to show this to the IFB, because they are so against works salvation and refuse to accept the truth of their works-based life.  However, it does show itself in many forms.  These may be:
- Three to Thrive, read your Bible, go soulwinning and pray for all your troubles to go away.
- You must work harder and try more in order to not disappoint your Savior.
- If you sin, it is because you have not strived hard enough against sin.
- I did more than you did.
- You must XYZ in order to be right with God.
- earning God's favor
- Proving to God through some method that you are deserving of His "Fulness Power"
- etc.

You get the idea.  The problem with this line of thinking is that it denies the Gospel's significance for your every day life.

Ok. I'll bite for a moment.

- Three to Thrive, read your Bible, go soulwinning and pray for all your troubles to go away.
- You must work harder and try more in order to not disappoint your Savior.
- If you sin, it is because you have not strived hard enough against sin.
- I did more than you did.
- You must XYZ in order to be right with God.
- earning God's favor
- Proving to God through some method that you are deserving of His "Fulness Power"

...each of those I bolded is true, scripturally true, SOME of the time. While that is true we must also remember that ALL of the time it is God's grace in us that enables us to serve Him satisfactorily. Thus, while it is ALWAYS His grace that enables us it is also true that SOMETIMES we must perform something in order to please Him.

I think that is where the balance lies.

Tom what must you do to be right with God? Please list those things.

 

[Fresh Air]

Tom what must you do to be right with God? Please list those things.

Well, I could give you a generic answer like, 'Read the Bible.' That would be ducking the question. Alternatively, I could go through it and find every detailed command that is applicable in this dispensation. That would take me months. I get your point just like you get mine. We just disagree with each other. To me, Scripture is clear that although I am accepted in the beloved, positionally, there are things I must do/be in order to be accepted by Him in this moment, practically. I realize many people disagree with me on this but that road runs both ways.

I've actually already written a chapter in my next book about this very topic. I think it is a troubling aspect of contemporary American Christianity and that it provides an incredible amount of cover for an incredible amount of mischief.

1 John 3:22 (KJV 1900)
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Sowing and reaping is a Biblical principle!

I believe applying that principle, disobedience brings trouble and obedience CAN and does bring blessing.

An illustration I used earlier...someone who abuses drugs and alcohol for years suffers the consequences in broken relationships, broken lives and often poor health. I have a dear friend dying from liver disease related to abuse.

Give, someone who abstains would suffer none of the above related to substance abuse...but could contract cancer while faithfully serving The Lord! Stuff happens to good and bad people but as Scripture says if anyone suffers, let him not suffer as an evildoer. 1Peter 4:15-16

The reward of obedience is pleasing Him who saved us....

 

[T-Bone]

Surely you believe that God will treat His disobedient children differently than He treats the obedient children, right?

No, not really, not if you mean God blesses his obedient children but doesn't bless disobedient children.

But if he means that God will discipline His disobedient children, he is correct, as Hebrews 12 makes very clear.

Yes, but you have no idea what that discipline entails. 

If God cursed and blessed based on behavior, I would assume God would have struck down people like Robert Tilton with multiple lightning bolts by now.  Yet there he is, knowingly telling lies about God and making gobs of money doing it.  I bet if you asked him, he'd say he was blessed by God (if he even believes there is a God).

Agreed...though I doubt Tilton feels that way today.  The principle remains the same whether we know what that discipline looks like.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Tom what must you do to be right with God? Please list those things.

To me, Scripture is clear that although I am accepted in the beloved, positionally, there are things I must do/be in order to be accepted by Him in this moment, practically.

I don't need the month long list of things to do to be accepted of Him, how aboout the top 5 or Letterman's top 10 list

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Surely you believe that God will treat His disobedient children differently than He treats the obedient children, right?

No, not really, not if you mean God blesses his obedient children but doesn't bless disobedient children.

But if he means that God will discipline His disobedient children, he is correct, as Hebrews 12 makes very clear.

Yes, but you have no idea what that discipline entails. 

If God cursed and blessed based on behavior, I would assume God would have struck down people like Robert Tilton with multiple lightning bolts by now.  Yet there he is, knowingly telling lies about God and making gobs of money doing it.  I bet if you asked him, he'd say he was blessed by God (if he even believes there is a God).

Agreed...though I doubt Tilton feels that way today.  The principle remains the same whether we know what that discipline looks like.

I haven't been keeping up to date on Tilton.  Did he crash and burn? 

 

[prophet]

Surely you believe that God will treat His disobedient children differently than He treats the obedient children, right?

No, not really, not if you mean God blesses his obedient children but doesn't bless disobedient children.

But if he means that God will discipline His disobedient children, he is correct, as Hebrews 12 makes very clear.

Yes, but you have no idea what that discipline entails. 

If God cursed and blessed based on behavior, I would assume God would have struck down people like Robert Tilton with multiple lightning bolts by now.  Yet there he is, knowingly telling lies about God and making gobs of money doing it.  I bet if you asked him, he'd say he was blessed by God (if he even believes there is a God).

Agreed...though I doubt Tilton feels that way today.  The principle remains the same whether we know what that discipline looks like.

I haven't been keeping up to date on Tilton.  Did he crash and burn?

He died last week.

 

[T-Bone]

Surely you believe that God will treat His disobedient children differently than He treats the obedient children, right?

No, not really, not if you mean God blesses his obedient children but doesn't bless disobedient children.

But if he means that God will discipline His disobedient children, he is correct, as Hebrews 12 makes very clear.

Yes, but you have no idea what that discipline entails. 

If God cursed and blessed based on behavior, I would assume God would have struck down people like Robert Tilton with multiple lightning bolts by now.  Yet there he is, knowingly telling lies about God and making gobs of money doing it.  I bet if you asked him, he'd say he was blessed by God (if he even believes there is a God).

Agreed...though I doubt Tilton feels that way today.  The principle remains the same whether we know what that discipline looks like.

I haven't been keeping up to date on Tilton.  Did he crash and burn?

He died last week.

Didn't know that...but he was caught and lost his "empire" many years ago.

Just checked...apparently he has not assumed room temperature quite yet.??

 

[prophet]

Surely you believe that God will treat His disobedient children differently than He treats the obedient children, right?

No, not really, not if you mean God blesses his obedient children but doesn't bless disobedient children.

But if he means that God will discipline His disobedient children, he is correct, as Hebrews 12 makes very clear.

Yes, but you have no idea what that discipline entails. 

If God cursed and blessed based on behavior, I would assume God would have struck down people like Robert Tilton with multiple lightning bolts by now.  Yet there he is, knowingly telling lies about God and making gobs of money doing it.  I bet if you asked him, he'd say he was blessed by God (if he even believes there is a God).

Agreed...though I doubt Tilton feels that way today.  The principle remains the same whether we know what that discipline looks like.

I haven't been keeping up to date on Tilton.  Did he crash and burn?

He died last week.

Didn't know that...but he was caught and lost his "empire" many years ago.

Just checked...apparently he has not assumed room temperature quite yet.??

Who died last week, then?

 

[nib1066]

No. We are supposed to be obedient to God because it's the right thing to do. Blessing has nothing to do with it.

I cannot agree with you more! Oh that the IFB movement would learn this simple, yet profound truth.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

When a Christian sins, his performance does not affect his relationship with Christ or his position in Christ. Gods love and grace to His children are unconditional.
However, while sin doesn’t put us out of the fellowship, it changes our fellowship with Him.

I agree with MacArthur:
When we sin, our relationship with God is violated but not terminated. Let me illustrate: We have four children. Most of the time they’re pretty good, but now and then they misbehave. However, no matter what they do, or how many times they’re disciplined or how severely they violate the relationship they have with Mom or Dad by disobedience, they are still our children! So it is with God. Hebrews 12:6 tells us that His children are the ones he chastens. When we sin we do not lose our relationship, we can lose the joy of it!

 

[Mathew Ward]

When a Christian sins, his performance does not affect his relationship with Christ or his position in Christ. Gods love and grace to His children are unconditional.
However, while sin doesn’t put us out of the fellowship, it changes our fellowship with Him.

I agree with MacArthur:
When we sin, our relationship with God is violated but not terminated. Let me illustrate: We have four children. Most of the time they’re pretty good, but now and then they misbehave. However, no matter what they do, or how many times they’re disciplined or how severely they violate the relationship they have with Mom or Dad by disobedience, they are still our children! So it is with God. Hebrews 12:6 tells us that His children are the ones he chastens. When we sin we do not lose our relationship, we can lose the joy of it!

So I lose my joy if I sin but I am still accepted of Him.

Tom said there were all these things we need to do to be accepted of him. I asked for the top 5 or Letterman's top 10.

It doesn't seem to be that this one that you listed would qualify.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

When a Christian sins, his performance does not affect his relationship with Christ or his position in Christ. Gods love and grace to His children are unconditional.
However, while sin doesn’t put us out of the fellowship, it changes our fellowship with Him.

I agree with MacArthur:
When we sin, our relationship with God is violated but not terminated. Let me illustrate: We have four children. Most of the time they’re pretty good, but now and then they misbehave. However, no matter what they do, or how many times they’re disciplined or how severely they violate the relationship they have with Mom or Dad by disobedience, they are still our children! So it is with God. Hebrews 12:6 tells us that His children are the ones he chastens. When we sin we do not lose our relationship, we can lose the joy of it!

So I lose my joy if I sin but I am still accepted of Him.

Tom said there were all these things we need to do to be accepted of him. I asked for the top 5 or Letterman's top 10.

It doesn't seem to be that this one that you listed would qualify.

Could you please translate that?
Thanks.

 

[Mathew Ward]

When a Christian sins, his performance does not affect his relationship with Christ or his position in Christ. Gods love and grace to His children are unconditional.
However, while sin doesn’t put us out of the fellowship, it changes our fellowship with Him.

I agree with MacArthur:
When we sin, our relationship with God is violated but not terminated. Let me illustrate: We have four children. Most of the time they’re pretty good, but now and then they misbehave. However, no matter what they do, or how many times they’re disciplined or how severely they violate the relationship they have with Mom or Dad by disobedience, they are still our children! So it is with God. Hebrews 12:6 tells us that His children are the ones he chastens. When we sin we do not lose our relationship, we can lose the joy of it!

So I lose my joy if I sin but I am still accepted of Him.

Tom said there were all these things we need to do to be accepted of him. I asked for the top 5 or Letterman's top 10.

It doesn't seem to be that this one that you listed would qualify.

Could you please translate that?
Thanks.

When we sin we still accepted by God, according to Johnny Mac.

Tom said there are things we need to do to be accepted by God...