What exactly is a "Compliment" these days??

Just me said:
FreeToBeMe said:
He stated in his letter that "the Lord brought to light that I was doing wrong".

Was he "found out", or was he actually convicted and admit this on his own?

You would have to do alot of reading to catch up on this one. 

Do you really think for a second Tom would have listened to the Lord without it coming to light by a means in which Tom or JAV could control.

The young lady who was recieving these posted texts (and many other unposted text) contacted one of the associate pastors.  She was a college student so she went to the dean of OBC about the text and he did the right thing with it.  Now it got hoim fired but he did right!!    He is a very good man!!

He researched and found more then just the one lady was recieving unwanted communications from Tommy Boy and then confronted Tom on it. The rest is history and JAV propaganda.

That is the short version.

Now to me this is the most revealing fact of this whole thread. A guy lost his job (and all that would entail) because he was approached with something about the pastor that was all on the up-and-up and was just a little misunderstanding?  JAV, please borrow me some money. I promise to pay you back next week. ;)
 
Walt said:
Thanks so much for such a relevant, Christ-like refutation.  This is sure to win me over to your point of view.

My dear brother, I am not trying to win you over to my point of view. I am trying to get you to realize the naivety and absurdity of your comment. There is no way that this can be deemed "light-hearted, encouraging, and the kind of thing [one can] expect friends [to] exchange."

I understand that neither you nor I know the whole story. I understand that neither of us can be dogmatic about our actions were it (God forbid) to happen to our church and our pastor. But, I also understand that too many people are willing to sweep such actions under the rug and chalk them up to "light-hearted" friendly exchanges.

I dare say that if your daughter or my daughter went off to college and any married man sent her texts of this nature, we would be there dealing with the scumbag in prompt fashion. I dare say we would act on far less than this. I know I would.

I apologize for the implications of the picture; I'd certainly love to believe that it doesn't apply to you in the least.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke   

-sarcasm off-

No need to turn it off, brother. Sarcasm is an excellent form of humor. You won't offend me with it. I find it quite entertaining.  8)
 
BALAAM said:
Now to me this is the most revealing fact of this whole thread. A guy lost his job (and all that would entail) because he was approached with something about the pastor that was all on the up-and-up and was just a little misunderstanding?  JAV, please borrow me some money. I promise to pay you back next week. ;)

Jim Vineyard is the spin master for sure!!!!

What is Tommy Boy going to do once daddy dies and he has no one to cover for his "situations"
 
Walt said:
TruthBearer said:
JAV once said if a wife doesn't keep her husband "happy" at home he will look for "happiness" with other women. Some how he uses this as an excuse for his son's behavior.

That's a particularly pernicious statement - throws the blame for the wandering husband on the wife.  While it may be true that the wife SOMETIMES makes home life horrible, in the first place, it is not a reason for the husband to philander, and, in the second place, some men are just consumed by sin, and no one could make them "happy at home".

Anybody remember "The Body of Christ is a Living Organism....." message?  That was painful!!!  Sitting next to my fiance!
 
SixGreatKids said:
Walt said:
TruthBearer said:
JAV once said if a wife doesn't keep her husband "happy" at home he will look for "happiness" with other women. Some how he uses this as an excuse for his son's behavior.

That's a particularly pernicious statement - throws the blame for the wandering husband on the wife.  While it may be true that the wife SOMETIMES makes home life horrible, in the first place, it is not a reason for the husband to philander, and, in the second place, some men are just consumed by sin, and no one could make them "happy at home".

Anybody remember "The Body of Christ is a Living Organism....." message?  That was painful!!!  Sitting next to my fiance!

Or many days in Christian Home at OBC
 
Walt said:
TruthBearer said:
Walt said:
Clearly, being unfaithful to his wife would be disqualifying.  Do we know that this was a secret relationship?  If his wife didn't know that he was acting like this toward the young lady, that's a black mark for sure.


In my opinion anyone in a leadership role should be held to a higher standard of conduct or they would not be able to counsel someone heading down a wrong path that could lead to a disqualifying action.

As I previously stated, I think the tone is a bit flirtatious -- it COULD just be friendly.  I think it is unwise for an older man to text a teen in this manner.

The Scripture gives qualifications for pastors, and "never making an unwise decision" is not one of them.

If one chooses to put a dark outlook, this series of messages is probably exactly how Jack Schaap started out...

Of all the people I text, my wife gets 98% of all text messages and call time.  It's a red flag that he is texting her so much.

It could just be friendly but WHBC teaches 1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." If an OBC or WHBS student was in this same position they would most likely be expelled or given so many demerits it would take the rest of their schooling to work them off (free labor).

This is an excellent point.  Jesus stated with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you -- if they would consider this wrong for OBC or WHBS, it is wrong for the pastor.  Of course, he did admit that it was wrong.  The issue is whether or not he should still be pastor.  I'm not sure which rule his sin may have broken; he certainly is not abstaining from all appearance of evil, which is a favorite "catch-all" preaching verse in many like churches.

He should be willing to face the same consequences as he would impose on others. I have known OBC students get expelled for similar actions and were required to take the semester over again if they wanted to graduate and WHBS student who received demerits and could no longer participate in sports because of his sin.

Per the letter, he acknowledged that he did wrong and (supposedly) made it right.  I am in no way trying to say that what he did is fine.  I believe it was wrong.  What I'm not convinced about is whether he should be allowed to remain as pastor (but see summary below).


Tommy Boy needs to practice what he preaches or preach what he practices, as of today they are not the same thing which would disqualify him as a pastor. As I said before there are around 45 other families that believe this too and no longer attend WHBC.

Yup.

Summary

Over the years, I've been friends with a couple of young women; it is very important to me that there be nothing improper about the friendship. No gift is from me alone (always from our family); I never texted them; I never even had their phone numbers - my wife sent any text message.  We just have similar interests in books and school subjects - talk is in public with people around.

Going back to the subject at hand, given TV's history in Africa (which he apparently has never told the truth about, which indicates he has never repented of the sin), and the fact that there were 14 women that he was texting in a similar manner, I'd tend to think that he should be removed as pastor, and that is how I would vote. If I were attending WHBC, I would leave -- this is just too much. As the saying goes "there's no smoke without fire" - this is just something wrong under the surface.

Per the letter he did acknowledge that he did wrong and asked forgiveness from his wife and church. That would not be good enough for a student they would have to face the consequences  not just a confession of wrong doing and asking for forgiveness.

You might also notice in the letter it did not take him long to start re-directing the blame and accusing others of having a grudge against him or his dad and were spreading rumors which is what the problem was not that he was texting other women.
 
FreeToBeMe said:
TruthBearer said:
The Lord brought it to light by using staff members to point it out to him. He only admitted wrong doing after he was approached because he could no longer hide it.

The text messages posted here are only from one of the girls. It would be interesting to see some of the other 13 women's text messages.

JAV once said if a wife doesn't keep her husband "happy" at home he will look for "happiness" with other women. Some how he uses this as an excuse for his son's behavior.

Looks to me like he was sweet talking that girl and got caught before it could go any further. 

Simply put, a man doesn't talk that way to a woman unless he's looking to get into her pants at some point.  To believe otherwise would be extremely naive.   

The Vice Squad/Sex crimes Unit refers to it as 'grooming'. Nothing sexual has happened yet but the predator is working towards that end.
 
SixGreatKids said:
Walt said:
TruthBearer said:
JAV once said if a wife doesn't keep her husband "happy" at home he will look for "happiness" with other women. Some how he uses this as an excuse for his son's behavior.

That's a particularly pernicious statement - throws the blame for the wandering husband on the wife.  While it may be true that the wife SOMETIMES makes home life horrible, in the first place, it is not a reason for the husband to philander, and, in the second place, some men are just consumed by sin, and no one could make them "happy at home".

Anybody remember "The Body of Christ is a Living Organism....." message?  That was painful!!!  Sitting next to my fiance!

I was in hac in the late 80's and JV was and still is a good friend of Roy Moffit. Roy was the leader of the ministry I was in and we had some kind of rah rah rally on a Saturday night and low and behold Roy had jv as the main speaker. Now, that would not have been a problem but I just happened to have my grandparents visiting who were in their 80's at the time. I really don't remember what the message was about but I do remember him talking about submissive women and about being submissive in the bedroom. He also called women who wore pants hussies and whores. My very Godly grandparents never came back. My grandma was wearing pants. And probably depends at the time. I was embarrassed to say the least. I really don't think jv can be embarrassed.
 
I don't think he said "Organism" once...in all 15 points.  He left out the "ni"!
 
Are you kidding me?  This guy is grooming a young girl.  If I need perfume for my Wife I pay attention and learn what she likes.  It would be wrong for me to want her to smell like some other woman.
 
Citadel of Truth said:
I understand that neither you nor I know the whole story. I understand that neither of us can be dogmatic about our actions were it (God forbid) to happen to our church and our pastor. But, I also understand that too many people are willing to sweep such actions under the rug and chalk them up to "light-hearted" friendly exchanges.

Agreed.  But the pendulum swings both ways... there are way too many people willing to believe ANY accusation against an IFB pastor.  A man and a teenage girl, both unknown to us.  The girl claims that the man has been inappropriate with her. Although neither is known, too many of us assume that she would have no reason to lie and must be telling the complete truth.

A writer once wrote a line I really liked - something like: We should assume the possibility of truth before proclaiming the probability of error.  I'm trying to put the best possible light on the whole thing; I think it is the right thing to do.


I dare say that if your daughter or my daughter went off to college and any married man sent her texts of this nature, we would be there dealing with the scumbag in prompt fashion. I dare say we would act on far less than this. I know I would.

Good point, and scary - my daughter's college days aren't that far away... (wonder if I can keep her at home for a few more year?).  If a married man was texting her like this, I certainly would be all over it.


I apologize for the implications of the picture; I'd certainly love to believe that it doesn't apply to you in the least.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke   

I have had to fight for balance; just because I don't like some actions of an IFB(x) pastor, that doesn't make him scum, nor should I assume the worst of him.
 
TruthBearer said:
FreeToBeMe said:
TruthBearer said:
The Lord brought it to light by using staff members to point it out to him. He only admitted wrong doing after he was approached because he could no longer hide it.

The text messages posted here are only from one of the girls. It would be interesting to see some of the other 13 women's text messages.

JAV once said if a wife doesn't keep her husband "happy" at home he will look for "happiness" with other women. Some how he uses this as an excuse for his son's behavior.

Looks to me like he was sweet talking that girl and got caught before it could go any further. 

Simply put, a man doesn't talk that way to a woman unless he's looking to get into her pants at some point.  To believe otherwise would be extremely naive.   

The Vice Squad/Sex crimes Unit refers to it as 'grooming'. Nothing sexual has happened yet but the predator is working towards that end.

It certainly looks that way; in my opinion (but that's not proof), this would have ultimately ended in adultery had she not gone to someone.
 
SixGreatKids said:
I don't think he said "Organism" once...in all 15 points.  He left out the "ni"!

Is this for real?  Or just exaggeration?

"Oh me!"
 
Tanner said:
Are you kidding me?  This guy is grooming a young girl.  If I need perfume for my Wife I pay attention and learn what she likes.  It would be wrong for me to want her to smell like some other woman.

True; after 15 years of marriage, I know what perfume my wife likes; I would never approach another woman with a request like that... if I did, I think my wife would "righteously" adjust my thoughts with a rolling pin.
 
Walt said:
SixGreatKids said:
I don't think he said "Organism" once...in all 15 points.  He left out the "ni"!

Is this for real?  Or just exaggeration?

"Oh me!"

No, no exaggeration.  One of the most uncomfortable messages I've ever heard.  Sneaking looks around me wondering if anyone else was hearing what he was saying.
 
SixGreatKids said:
Walt said:
SixGreatKids said:
I don't think he said "Organism" once...in all 15 points.  He left out the "ni"!

Is this for real?  Or just exaggeration?

"Oh me!"

No, no exaggeration.  One of the most uncomfortable messages I've ever heard.  Sneaking looks around me wondering if anyone else was hearing what he was saying.


Well he aint called JAV29 for nothing!!
 
privateuser said:
From: "Tom Vineyard" <pastor@windsorhills.org> Date: Mon, May 19, 2014 4:09 pm To: undisclosed-recipients:; ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear WHBC Missionary Family, I am writing to you because of gossip and rumors that have been flying around. I want you to hear from me what has happened and what has been done. Last November, the Lord brought to light that I was doing wrong. I had crossed the line in my communications with a female student through text messaging. The communications started out in a professional capacity and then crossed the line in becoming too familiar. I complimented her appearance, her attire, and her perfume. There was no sexual content in my messages, nor any intent on my part. There was nothing that would disqualify me from being your pastor. I make no excuses for what I did, and I accepted responsibility for it. I immediately confessed it to my wife, and she was made aware of the content of the messages. I asked her to forgive me, and she forgave me. With my wife present, I apologized to the person that I had offended. She told me that she forgave me.
One of our deacons headed up a disciplinary committee. The discipline was handled according to Matthew 18 and according to our church’s Constitution. As part of my discipline, I was given a letter of reprimand. The situation resurfaced in March, when gossip began to circulate around church, as well as on Facebook. A second young lady, who I had tried to help reconcile with her family last fall began to communicate with the first young lady. She accused me of calling her late at night and paying her intimate compliments. She claimed to have phone records to support her claims. My wife looked at our phone records, however, and verified that there had been no such calls at the times that she had claimed. The text messages verified that there were no intimate compliments made to her. While I had talked to her on the phone, it was during the day at the church and within ear shot of the office ladies who can hear every conversation in my office.

From what I have been told, those who have an ax to grind with this ministry, me, or my dad, have jumped on the bandwagon to believe what she said and help spread the manure even farther. I met with the deacons and presented the facts. They were satisfied with them. We then had a men’s meeting to set the record straight, and it seemed at the time to have gone well. More time passed, and then it came up again this past week. A now former staff member took it on himself to research rumors about me, going all the way back to when I was in high school. He presented his research to me last Wednesday, demanding that I resign. At the same time he offered his own resignation, I took counsel again from Bro. Ross, as well as Bro. Van Manen, Hearron, Jones, and Finn, trusted men by the congregation to see if what was said disqualified me. Unanimously, they said "no," and I accepted the staff member’s resignation. Brother Ross came and spoke all day yesterday. He was such blessing in cutting through all of the hearsay, rumors, and innuendo in order to get down to what matters. I went before the church at the end of the service, confessed what I had done, and asked for forgiveness. As I did with the church, I want to ask for your forgiveness for what I have done.  I hope that this letter will answer any questions that you may have had. If you have any more, please write and ask. I hope that you can forgive me for what I did. Sincerely, Pastor






1. "I complimented her appearance, her attire, and her perfume." - He never once complimented this girl on her perfume. Not once did he say he liked the perfume or that she smelled good.... In fact, when she brought him the bottles in a bag to look at, he didn't even look at them. He just handed them back to her with a weird smile on his face.

This man was "fishing" and not for Bass...I’ll just leave that one alone.

2. "With my wife present, I apologized to the person that I had offended. She told me that she forgave me." - Yes this did happen, but not in the way that he is trying to make it sound. He brought her in with the staff member that she had talked to and his wife. He said that he was sorry that she took the messages the wrong way and that he didn't mean for her to feel uncomfortable. His wife then started talking about how he compliments women on their appearance in front of her all the time (Which means she probably is just listening to what he TOLD her the texts said and didn't actually read them for herself) and that he just doesn't know how things can come across wrong in text messages. (Tom Vinyard is not an naïve idiot. He wouldn't or shouldn't be a pastor if he was)
"He just shouldn't be texting because he doesn't realize how weird things can sound...that's just his personality"  Funny that he is NEVER that way in person or with any of the other students.  But hey...it’s just his personality.

3.  “As part of my discipline, I was given a letter of reprimand.” – His phone was taken away temporarily and he signed charges of sexual harassment.  (Something that any employee in any work environment would be fired for).


4. “The situation resurfaced in March, when gossip began to circulate around church, as well as on Facebook.” – The situation resurfaced before said young lady began to “gossip” about it on Facebook. Just to give you a little history…) The previous fall, before all of this “came to light” Pastor Vinyard had asked the first girl (we’ll call her #1) to talk to the second girl (we’ll call her #2) because they had gone through similar circumstances.

#2 did not know what was going on because #1 had never said anything to anyone but the staff member.  #2 called #1 during spring break and asked if she could tell #1 something in confidence because she didn’t know who else to talk to about it. #2 asked #1 if she had ever felt uncomfortable with talking to Pastor Vinyard. Of course #1 immediately started asking why she would ask that and #2 showed her the texts messages and discussed conversations that she had with the pastor that made her feel uneasy. She said that he had stopped texting her out of nowhere, some time around the end of November. #1 checked to see when and yes, it was the very time he had his phone taken away. The text messages weren’t as extreme and blatant as #1’s text messages with him but they were headed that way for sure.  #1 then took the information to the same staff member as before. (With the permission of #2). It was brought to the deacon board and then #1 was told that there wasn’t enough in the text messages to prove anything. #1 was told by Joe Finn that she needed to write her name down and draw a circle around it…mind her own business. And then was told she had to sign a document stating that as long as she was a student there that she wouldn’t talk about the situation to anyone but her family. All of this of course upset #2 and then she posted about it on facebook weeks later.

Side note: Which, may I say is why girls all over that country that this has happened to will never come forward. They fear that they will be told they don’t have proof, and then look like a girl crying wolf. This is also why #1 let it go on for so long. Because she knew that accusing a pastor of such things was a big deal and that she would have to have more proof. 

5. “it was during the day at the church and within ear shot of the office ladies who can hear every conversation in my office.” – This is not true, because every time he had a “counseling" session with man or woman alone, he had the door completely shut. He has a window on the door, with the blinds opened. But you cannot hear the conversations.

6. “I met with the deacons and presented the facts.” – After hearing from #1’s father, he agreed to have a meeting with the deacons, the staff member that #1 came to, and her father on speaker phone. But instead he conducted the meeting without the staff member and without the girl’s father present on the phone. So basically the deacons only got information that he wanted them to have.

7. “We then had a men’s meeting to set the record straight, and it seemed at the time to have gone well.” – Why have a men’s meeting when you haven’t offended any men?? After the meeting, almost all of the men that were there were more confused than anything. Because they had no idea what had happened and still didn’t after the meeting.

8.  Just to add to what I keep seeing on here. Not a single person was fired over this. They all put in their resignation, willingly. They were all just waiting for the school year to end and to see what would happen.

9.  #1 had asked several times if she could meet with the pastor again to talk about what was going on. That never happened. And then when Joe Finn caught wind that #1 may come past the next fall to finish school, he had the staff member that she had been talking to tell her “Bro Finn and pastor have asked me to let you know that you are not welcome to come back to school next fall” She asked why and the staff member said “I don’t know. They wouldn’t give me a reason and they will not talk to you about it either”  This happened on the day the students were dismissed to go home for the summer.


Pastor Vinyard has been nothing but vague in every “apology” he has given. Never once has he been open and honest about what has happened.  “I hope that this letter will answer any questions that you may have had. If you have any more, please write and ask.” Every time someone asks a question they are given the same answer…to mind their own business or the same vague excuses given in the letter. All manipulated to say what he wants the congregation to hear.
 
Tanner said:
Are you kidding me?  This guy is grooming a young girl.  If I need perfume for my Wife I pay attention and learn what she likes.  It would be wrong for me to want her to smell like some other woman.

I have bought perfume for my wife and when we went to the mall she used to smell different kinds and mention which ones she liked. I would remember that kind and buy it for her later.

Smelling like another woman would only make you think of that woman when you were with your wife.
 
Often times perfume smells differently on different woman.
 
TruthBearer said:
...when we went to the mall she used to smell different kinds and mention which ones she liked. I would remember that kind and buy it for her later.

I do the same thing, but more times than not, my wife will ask me what I think smells best on her. In all fairness, she picks out my cologne as well.  8)

Honestly, I couldn't tell you what perfume any woman has on unless she literally bathes herself in it.
 
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