What exactly is a "Compliment" these days??

Walt said:
TruthBearer said:
FreeToBeMe said:
TruthBearer said:
The Lord brought it to light by using staff members to point it out to him. He only admitted wrong doing after he was approached because he could no longer hide it.

The text messages posted here are only from one of the girls. It would be interesting to see some of the other 13 women's text messages.

JAV once said if a wife doesn't keep her husband "happy" at home he will look for "happiness" with other women. Some how he uses this as an excuse for his son's behavior.

Looks to me like he was sweet talking that girl and got caught before it could go any further. 

Simply put, a man doesn't talk that way to a woman unless he's looking to get into her pants at some point.  To believe otherwise would be extremely naive.   

The Vice Squad/Sex crimes Unit refers to it as 'grooming'. Nothing sexual has happened yet but the predator is working towards that end.

It certainly looks that way; in my opinion (but that's not proof), this would have ultimately ended in adultery had she not gone to someone.

I know she was over the legal age limit but had she been under age the police could have used these text as proof of grooming to help convict him. The only difference here is she is of age thus no criminal charges.

Also as I believe someone eluded to earlier, if there was nothing wrong why did the girl go to a staff member with her concerns? She must have felt there was something wrong.

There are parts of the story that are not in the text message posted and nobody knows, such as how did he act when she was around, how did he look at her, or treat her in public and private. Obviously all this treatment caused enough concern for her to approach someone for help.

I have known young ladies overtime that have come to me and address concerns about a man that was doing similar actions asking if I could talk to them and make them go away and at other times they have mentioned a weird guy but didn't want any done.

Each time they felt very uncomfortable, afraid, creeped out, nervous, and scared of what the guy might do. I can only speculate this girl felt the same since it is a commone reaction for women when a guy is wanting to keep things secret and complimenting them on their dress, perfume, etc. and they are not emotional attached to the guy or attracted to him.
 
Citadel of Truth said:
TruthBearer said:
...when we went to the mall she used to smell different kinds and mention which ones she liked. I would remember that kind and buy it for her later.

I do the same thing, but more times than not, my wife will ask me what I think smells best on her. In all fairness, she picks out my cologne as well.  8)

Honestly, I couldn't tell you what perfume any woman has on unless she literally bathes herself in it.

There are many that do bath in perfume and you can smell they have been around 10 minutes after they left. It makes me wonder what they are trying to cover up.
 
privateuser said:
Side note: Which, may I say is why girls all over that country that this has happened to will never come forward. They fear that they will be told they don’t have proof, and then look like a girl crying wolf. This is also why #1 let it go on for so long. Because she knew that accusing a pastor of such things was a big deal and that she would have to have more proof. 


5. “it was during the day at the church and within ear shot of the office ladies who can hear every conversation in my office.” – This is not true, because every time he had a “counseling" session with man or woman alone, he had the door completely shut. He has a window on the door, with the blinds opened. But you cannot hear the conversations.

I personally know two former female office workers that left for no other reason then inappropriate comments made by Tommy Boy in the office when nobody was around because they had no proof and as always who would the church believe them or the anointed one?

Tommy Boy's office door was always closed during counseling sessions and most of the time during the day with the blinds closed on his office door.

When JAV was pastor the blinds in front of the office hallway were always open. Shortly after Tommy Boy took over the church they were always closed.

Why would anyone go to a pastor for counseling when the door is open and everyone could here what your private troubles are? This doesn't make any sense at all. Counseling session should not be open to whoever walks in the office. I don't know of any Pastor that would do this.
 
TruthBearer said:
I personally know two former female office workers that left for no other reason then inappropriate comments made by Tommy Boy in the office when nobody was around because they had no proof and as always who would the church believe them or the anointed one?

Like father like son.  Is not that what part of what happened to JAV back in the early 2000's with the letter from Tony Van Manen and then the ensuing Centurion/Braveheart/Gladiator/Abi Martin battle that took off and eventually led to JAV turning the reins over to Bro. Porter?

Yep it was .  Tommy, like Paul, is just like daddy. Mamma should be so proud of her boys!!
 
privateuser said:
privateuser said:
From: "Tom Vineyard" <pastor@windsorhills.org> Date: Mon, May 19, 2014 4:09 pm To: undisclosed-recipients:; ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear WHBC Missionary Family, I am writing to you because of gossip and rumors that have been flying around. I want you to hear from me what has happened and what has been done. Last November, the Lord brought to light that I was doing wrong. I had crossed the line in my communications with a female student through text messaging. The communications started out in a professional capacity and then crossed the line in becoming too familiar. I complimented her appearance, her attire, and her perfume. There was no sexual content in my messages, nor any intent on my part. There was nothing that would disqualify me from being your pastor. I make no excuses for what I did, and I accepted responsibility for it. I immediately confessed it to my wife, and she was made aware of the content of the messages. I asked her to forgive me, and she forgave me. With my wife present, I apologized to the person that I had offended. She told me that she forgave me.
One of our deacons headed up a disciplinary committee. The discipline was handled according to Matthew 18 and according to our church’s Constitution. As part of my discipline, I was given a letter of reprimand. The situation resurfaced in March, when gossip began to circulate around church, as well as on Facebook. A second young lady, who I had tried to help reconcile with her family last fall began to communicate with the first young lady. She accused me of calling her late at night and paying her intimate compliments. She claimed to have phone records to support her claims. My wife looked at our phone records, however, and verified that there had been no such calls at the times that she had claimed. The text messages verified that there were no intimate compliments made to her. While I had talked to her on the phone, it was during the day at the church and within ear shot of the office ladies who can hear every conversation in my office.

From what I have been told, those who have an ax to grind with this ministry, me, or my dad, have jumped on the bandwagon to believe what she said and help spread the manure even farther. I met with the deacons and presented the facts. They were satisfied with them. We then had a men’s meeting to set the record straight, and it seemed at the time to have gone well. More time passed, and then it came up again this past week. A now former staff member took it on himself to research rumors about me, going all the way back to when I was in high school. He presented his research to me last Wednesday, demanding that I resign. At the same time he offered his own resignation, I took counsel again from Bro. Ross, as well as Bro. Van Manen, Hearron, Jones, and Finn, trusted men by the congregation to see if what was said disqualified me. Unanimously, they said "no," and I accepted the staff member’s resignation. Brother Ross came and spoke all day yesterday. He was such blessing in cutting through all of the hearsay, rumors, and innuendo in order to get down to what matters. I went before the church at the end of the service, confessed what I had done, and asked for forgiveness. As I did with the church, I want to ask for your forgiveness for what I have done.  I hope that this letter will answer any questions that you may have had. If you have any more, please write and ask. I hope that you can forgive me for what I did. Sincerely, Pastor






1. "I complimented her appearance, her attire, and her perfume." - He never once complimented this girl on her perfume. Not once did he say he liked the perfume or that she smelled good.... In fact, when she brought him the bottles in a bag to look at, he didn't even look at them. He just handed them back to her with a weird smile on his face.

This man was "fishing" and not for Bass...I’ll just leave that one alone.

2. "With my wife present, I apologized to the person that I had offended. She told me that she forgave me." - Yes this did happen, but not in the way that he is trying to make it sound. He brought her in with the staff member that she had talked to and his wife. He said that he was sorry that she took the messages the wrong way and that he didn't mean for her to feel uncomfortable. His wife then started talking about how he compliments women on their appearance in front of her all the time (Which means she probably is just listening to what he TOLD her the texts said and didn't actually read them for herself) and that he just doesn't know how things can come across wrong in text messages. (Tom Vinyard is not an naïve idiot. He wouldn't or shouldn't be a pastor if he was)
"He just shouldn't be texting because he doesn't realize how weird things can sound...that's just his personality"  Funny that he is NEVER that way in person or with any of the other students.  But hey...it’s just his personality.

3.  “As part of my discipline, I was given a letter of reprimand.” – His phone was taken away temporarily and he signed charges of sexual harassment.  (Something that any employee in any work environment would be fired for).


4. “The situation resurfaced in March, when gossip began to circulate around church, as well as on Facebook.” – The situation resurfaced before said young lady began to “gossip” about it on Facebook. Just to give you a little history…) The previous fall, before all of this “came to light” Pastor Vinyard had asked the first girl (we’ll call her #1) to talk to the second girl (we’ll call her #2) because they had gone through similar circumstances.

#2 did not know what was going on because #1 had never said anything to anyone but the staff member.  #2 called #1 during spring break and asked if she could tell #1 something in confidence because she didn’t know who else to talk to about it. #2 asked #1 if she had ever felt uncomfortable with talking to Pastor Vinyard. Of course #1 immediately started asking why she would ask that and #2 showed her the texts messages and discussed conversations that she had with the pastor that made her feel uneasy. She said that he had stopped texting her out of nowhere, some time around the end of November. #1 checked to see when and yes, it was the very time he had his phone taken away. The text messages weren’t as extreme and blatant as #1’s text messages with him but they were headed that way for sure.  #1 then took the information to the same staff member as before. (With the permission of #2). It was brought to the deacon board and then #1 was told that there wasn’t enough in the text messages to prove anything. #1 was told by Joe Finn that she needed to write her name down and draw a circle around it…mind her own business. And then was told she had to sign a document stating that as long as she was a student there that she wouldn’t talk about the situation to anyone but her family. All of this of course upset #2 and then she posted about it on facebook weeks later.

Side note: Which, may I say is why girls all over that country that this has happened to will never come forward. They fear that they will be told they don’t have proof, and then look like a girl crying wolf. This is also why #1 let it go on for so long. Because she knew that accusing a pastor of such things was a big deal and that she would have to have more proof. 

5. “it was during the day at the church and within ear shot of the office ladies who can hear every conversation in my office.” – This is not true, because every time he had a “counseling" session with man or woman alone, he had the door completely shut. He has a window on the door, with the blinds opened. But you cannot hear the conversations.

6. “I met with the deacons and presented the facts.” – After hearing from #1’s father, he agreed to have a meeting with the deacons, the staff member that #1 came to, and her father on speaker phone. But instead he conducted the meeting without the staff member and without the girl’s father present on the phone. So basically the deacons only got information that he wanted them to have.

7. “We then had a men’s meeting to set the record straight, and it seemed at the time to have gone well.” – Why have a men’s meeting when you haven’t offended any men?? After the meeting, almost all of the men that were there were more confused than anything. Because they had no idea what had happened and still didn’t after the meeting.

8.  Just to add to what I keep seeing on here. Not a single person was fired over this. They all put in their resignation, willingly. They were all just waiting for the school year to end and to see what would happen.

9.  #1 had asked several times if she could meet with the pastor again to talk about what was going on. That never happened. And then when Joe Finn caught wind that #1 may come past the next fall to finish school, he had the staff member that she had been talking to tell her “Bro Finn and pastor have asked me to let you know that you are not welcome to come back to school next fall” She asked why and the staff member said “I don’t know. They wouldn’t give me a reason and they will not talk to you about it either”  This happened on the day the students were dismissed to go home for the summer.


Pastor Vinyard has been nothing but vague in every “apology” he has given. Never once has he been open and honest about what has happened.  “I hope that this letter will answer any questions that you may have had. If you have any more, please write and ask.” Every time someone asks a question they are given the same answer…to mind their own business or the same vague excuses given in the letter. All manipulated to say what he wants the congregation to hear.

Sounds like privateuser is saying Tom has been deceptive in his dealings with churches in his letter?  Taking a thread of truth and twisting it to his advantage in his "appology" so that he looks like he was just a poor, humble and misunderstood preacher of the Gospel who was only trying to help out a female by way of a misunderstood text mesage. 

Only to be attacked by a second female making false accusations and a bunch of puzzard puke forum poster scum spreading manuere about the pure as the driven snow managod.
 
I want to say that I really appreciate privateuser pointing out the discrepancies in the letter and the actual behavior.

To those in the know: is "grooming" actually considered illegal?

I have said all along that what he did is wrong, but that I was not certain that what he did were pastor-disqualifying sins.  I am more troubled by how he dealt with the situation than by the situation itself.  It does appear to be a whitewash job.

If he did sign sexual harassment papers, I hope that the young lady has a copy.  Certainly someone OTHER than Tom Vineyard should have a copy.
 
Walt said:
If he did sign sexual harassment papers, I hope that the young lady has a copy.  Certainly someone OTHER than Tom Vineyard should have a copy.

I imagine, knowing the place, that only a yes man deacon would have a copy and I really doubt that.  The paper would be filled away somewhere.
 
"...must be above reproach, husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable...not puffed up with conceit...well thought of by outsiders..."
 
Just me said:
Walt said:
If he did sign sexual harassment papers, I hope that the young lady has a copy.  Certainly someone OTHER than Tom Vineyard should have a copy.

I imagine, knowing the place, that only a yes man deacon would have a copy and I really doubt that.  The paper would be filled away somewhere.

The problem with this approach is that TV can put pressure on a "yes man" deacon to say (in effect): I've been pure for a year now - let's burn the papers.  How  much better it would be to lodge it with an independent person.
 
Walt said:
The problem with this approach is that TV can put pressure on a "yes man" deacon to say (in effect): I've been pure for a year now - let's burn the papers.  How  much better it would be to lodge it with an independent person.

Oh you are absolutely right on that one Walt.  BUT  Vineyards don't roll that way.  AND Vineyards have the power at WHBC. 
 
Walt said:
I want to say that I really appreciate privateuser pointing out the discrepancies in the letter and the actual behavior.

To those in the know: is "grooming" actually considered illegal?

I have said all along that what he did is wrong, but that I was not certain that what he did were pastor-disqualifying sins.  I am more troubled by how he dealt with the situation than by the situation itself.  It does appear to be a whitewash job.

If he did sign sexual harassment papers, I hope that the young lady has a copy.  Certainly someone OTHER than Tom Vineyard should have a copy.

Grooming in itself is not a crime if the person is of legal age and it is not considered grooming for legal age people. For under age people it is a federal crime and a felony in some states, not sure about Oklahoma.
 
TruthBearer said:
Walt said:
I want to say that I really appreciate privateuser pointing out the discrepancies in the letter and the actual behavior.

To those in the know: is "grooming" actually considered illegal?

I have said all along that what he did is wrong, but that I was not certain that what he did were pastor-disqualifying sins.  I am more troubled by how he dealt with the situation than by the situation itself.  It does appear to be a whitewash job.

If he did sign sexual harassment papers, I hope that the young lady has a copy.  Certainly someone OTHER than Tom Vineyard should have a copy.

Grooming in itself is not a crime if the person is of legal age and it is not considered grooming for legal age people. For under age people it is a federal crime and a felony in some states, not sure about Oklahoma.

It appears from the text message this could be considered an act of grooming. It is easier to get a girl in a vulnerable situation if you first establish trust and a degree of confidentiality then make them feel guilty enough not to say anything since they were "willing participants".
 
I think in this case the girl was much to smart and strong to be suckered in to his "grooming" efforts.  Seeing the way she answered his text tells me she was on to him.
 
Just me said:
I think in this case the girl was much to smart and strong to be suckered in to his "grooming" efforts.  Seeing the way she answered his text tells me she was on to him.

Yes, in my opinion, it seems that some of her responses indicate that she was uncomfortable, and trying to deflect the questions away.  What stands out as I type this are the personal question "Are you sleeping well/getting enough sleep?" -- her answers were short and terse and said something like "I'm fine/I'm OK".
 
TruthBearer said:
remarried another whore

He married a prostitute? I think attacking a man's wife is quite distasteful.

As far as these text messages from a pastor to a 20 year old woman? He should have been removed from the pastorate and if he was not, I would have been church hopping the next Sunday. Then again, I would not go to that style church in the first place.
 
groupie said:
TruthBearer said:
remarried another whore

He married a prostitute? I think attacking a man's wife is quite distasteful.

As far as these text messages from a pastor to a 20 year old woman? He should have been removed from the pastorate and if he was not, I would have been church hopping the next Sunday. Then again, I would not go to that style church in the first place.

Sometimes the truth is distasteful to discover. Stating what she is, is less distasteful than a man abandoning his children and attacking his children for telling the truth about him.

Anything true about Paul Vineyard would be distasteful to mention. He is a waste of human life and so is anyone that supports the piece of feces.

If Paul had the courage to stand in front of a real man without daddy pulling a gun or Tommy Boy to back him up he would have already got what's coming to him. The whole bunch are cowards.

This is my opinion as well as several other people I know. Compared to some others I am being nice too.

(JAV pulling the gun to save Paul's butt is fact, there is more to this story that cannot be put on a public website)
 
groupie said:
As far as these text messages from a pastor to a 20 year old woman? He should have been removed from the pastorate and if he was not, I would have been church hopping the next Sunday. Then again, I would not go to that style church in the first place.

If it were ONLY these text messages to ONE woman and nothing else, I would think that what they did was fine.

I see that it could be taken as "grooming" for a dark purpose... at the same time, if this were the ONLY instance, it could just be friendliness that went a bit too far and became unwise.  I don't think I would vote to dismiss him on this ONLY.  However, given his history in Africa, and the other women that came forward, I WOULD vote to dismiss him as pastor.
 
Walt said:
groupie said:
As far as these text messages from a pastor to a 20 year old woman? He should have been removed from the pastorate and if he was not, I would have been church hopping the next Sunday. Then again, I would not go to that style church in the first place.

If it were ONLY these text messages to ONE woman and nothing else, I would think that what they did was fine.

I see that it could be taken as "grooming" for a dark purpose... at the same time, if this were the ONLY instance, it could just be friendliness that went a bit too far and became unwise.  I don't think I would vote to dismiss him on this ONLY.  However, given his history in Africa, and the other women that came forward, I WOULD vote to dismiss him as pastor.

I can see your point IF these text that were posted were all there was to it; things would be different. People would be more likely to give him the benefit of doubt.

However Tommy Boy has a history of doing things that should disqualify him as a pastor but when these things are brought up to the staff or deacons the accuser just misunderstood what Tommy Boy was saying and they get attacked.

When this happens to people personally more than once and they leave the church and the attacks get worse, then see something like this it is all they need to know he was up to no good and should be removed as pastor.

A question he should be asking himself for the sake of the church is if all the members that recently left had a grudge against him or his dad WHY WAS THAT? Why would so many members be looking for a reason to leave a church?

I can see one or two family's but over half the church 45 or so families in less than a month. What could be going on at a church like that with so many people having a grudge.
 
Walt said:
groupie said:
As far as these text messages from a pastor to a 20 year old woman? He should have been removed from the pastorate and if he was not, I would have been church hopping the next Sunday. Then again, I would not go to that style church in the first place.

If it were ONLY these text messages to ONE woman and nothing else, I would think that what they did was fine.

I see that it could be taken as "grooming" for a dark purpose... at the same time, if this were the ONLY instance, it could just be friendliness that went a bit too far and became unwise.  I don't think I would vote to dismiss him on this ONLY.  However, given his history in Africa, and the other women that came forward, I WOULD vote to dismiss him as pastor.

Sadly, that too was well covered by the Vineyard regime
 
TruthBearer said:
Walt said:
groupie said:
As far as these text messages from a pastor to a 20 year old woman? He should have been removed from the pastorate and if he was not, I would have been church hopping the next Sunday. Then again, I would not go to that style church in the first place.

If it were ONLY these text messages to ONE woman and nothing else, I would think that what they did was fine.

I see that it could be taken as "grooming" for a dark purpose... at the same time, if this were the ONLY instance, it could just be friendliness that went a bit too far and became unwise.  I don't think I would vote to dismiss him on this ONLY.  However, given his history in Africa, and the other women that came forward, I WOULD vote to dismiss him as pastor.

I can see your point IF these text that were posted were all there was to it; things would be different. People would be more likely to give him the benefit of doubt.

However Tommy Boy has a history of doing things that should disqualify him as a pastor but when these things are brought up to the staff or deacons the accuser just misunderstood what Tommy Boy was saying and they get attacked.

When this happens to people personally more than once and they leave the church and the attacks get worse, then see something like this it is all they need to know he was up to no good and should be removed as pastor.

A question he should be asking himself for the sake of the church is if all the members that recently left had a grudge against him or his dad WHY WAS THAT? Why would so many members be looking for a reason to leave a church?

I can see one or two family's but over half the church 45 or so families in less than a month. What could be going on at a church like that with so many people having a grudge.

Exactly.  Hard to believe that so many families simultaneously developed a "grudge" that so perfectly matched the timing of the revelation of his texting problem.
 
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