What exactly is a "Compliment" these days??

[Walt]

In my opinion, the tone of the messages is flirtatious on his part.

I get the idea that she was a bit uncomfortable, but didn't know how to handle such texts from her supposed MOG.

I don't know if I would stay there, but if this is a sample of what was happening, I don't think it warrants as a pastor-disqualifying action.

So how far would a Pastor have to go with a secret relationship with another woman before you would consider it a pastor disqualifying action?

Clearly, being unfaithful to his wife would be disqualifying.  Do we know that this was a secret relationship?  If his wife didn't know that he was acting like this toward the young lady, that's a black mark for sure.

In my opinion anyone in a leadership role should be held to a higher standard of conduct or they would not be able to counsel someone heading down a wrong path that could lead to a disqualifying action.

As I previously stated, I think the tone is a bit flirtatious -- it COULD just be friendly.  I think it is unwise for an older man to text a teen in this manner.

The Scripture gives qualifications for pastors, and "never making an unwise decision" is not one of them.

If one chooses to put a dark outlook, this series of messages is probably exactly how Jack Schaap started out...

Of all the people I text, my wife gets 98% of all text messages and call time.  It's a red flag that he is texting her so much.

 

[Just me]

I posted this before in a previous thread:

By his (Tom's) own teachings is he qualified?  He teaches that the qualifications for a pastor are found in 1 Timothy 3:1 – 7
1  This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3  not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4  one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5  (for if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6  not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7  Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil

So does he meet these qualifications?  He seems to fail verses 2, 6 and 7 as a minimum for his behavior in texting young woman who are not his wife or daughters.  This behavior is clearly not considered blameless or good behavior by any except the kool-aid drinkers themselves.  His overall actions are clearly against verse 6 and are that of PRIDE leading to his fall.  And obviously these actions will not leave a good report with those that are without the church.

Would you go to a church that the pastor fails Scriptural qualifications?

 

[Citadel of Truth]

...it could be innocent friendship...

Would you allow your wife to have this innocent friendship?

 

[Just me]

Innocent????

With a 20 something divorced lady that he is pastor over and has therefore authoritative power over. The young lady is also a college student in the college he is President of thus making her even more suceptible to his advances. This is a young lady that he is counselling with and meeting from 1 to 3 times a day.  A young lady that he is texting over 70 times in a 20 day span in which he is complimenting the young lady dozens of times not the once or twice he has admitted to?  One in which he calls her a pet name many times?  One is which he is asking personal questions to in the texts?

In my opinion the idea that he did this in an innocent fashion is ridiculous.

But on a positive note any single guys out there wanting to learn how to wow a lady should get copies of his text and study them!!

Follow your pastors lead 

 

[Walt]

...it could be innocent friendship...

Would you allow your wife to have this innocent friendship?

Really, such things are complex and not simple to answer.

For example, my wife & I have a friend  (male, single) whom we have both known all our married life.  He a friend to both of us.  He could text her this kind of thing, but she would tell me.  I don't really worry about him. At the same time, there was a married man I knew who started hanging around my wife and talking to her; that set off a bunch of red flags because I was excluded.

We also both know a married woman our age. She and I used to work together and know each other pretty well and will joke around.  However, my wife & she have gone places together, and my wife is aware of every/any interaction I have with her.

Having said all of that, if our pastor or SS teacher suddenly started texting my wife as much as TV texting this young woman, AND was asking her to not tell me, I'd have a problem with it, especially if I felt that I was being excluded.

 

[Walt]

Innocent????

With a 20 something divorced lady that he is pastor over and has therefore authoritative power over. The young lady is also a college student in the college he is President of thus making her even more suceptible to his advances. This is a young lady that he is counselling with and meeting from 1 to 3 times a day.  A young lady that he is texting over 70 times in a 20 day span in which he is complimenting the young lady dozens of times not the once or twice he has admitted to?  One in which he calls her a pet name many times?  One is which he is asking personal questions to in the texts?

In my opinion the idea that he did this in an innocent fashion is ridiculous.

Well... much depends upon contexts.  If in that 20 days, he has sent 700 texts, then 70 is significant, but it's not like he's spending all of his time texting her.  At the same time, if he only sent 80-100 texts total, that's a big red flag.  He may be a big texting person.  Context matters.

The texts seem light-hearted, encouraging, and the kind of thing I expect friends exchange.  Yes, they are bordering on personal; I think that, given their positions, they are unwise.

Without some other context, however, I don't think this qualifies as being unfaithful to his wife.

 

[Just me]

Well... much depends upon contexts.  If in that 20 days, he has sent 700 texts, then 70 is significant, but it's not like he's spending all of his time texting her.  At the same time, if he only sent 80-100 texts total, that's a big red flag.  He may be a big texting person.  Context matters.

The texts seem light-hearted, encouraging, and the kind of thing I expect friends exchange.  Yes, they are bordering on personal; I think that, given their positions, they are unwise.

Without some other context, however, I don't think this qualifies as being unfaithful to his wife.

Define unfaithful my friend?  But that never was my point.  Mine has been always that he is doing that which is unbecoming of a pastor by the Biblical standard that he preaches/teaches in the college.

You are right in that they are at the least unwise.  But I personally feel they are far more then just that.  And it appears the majority of WHBC members and staff has also.

And I am willing to bet that JAV knew this also and that is why JAV did not let it go to the vote of the members!!!

 

[Citadel of Truth]

The texts seem light-hearted, encouraging, and the kind of thing I expect friends exchange.

 

[TruthBearer]

In my opinion, the tone of the messages is flirtatious on his part.

I get the idea that she was a bit uncomfortable, but didn't know how to handle such texts from her supposed MOG.

I don't know if I would stay there, but if this is a sample of what was happening, I don't think it warrants as a pastor-disqualifying action.

So how far would a Pastor have to go with a secret relationship with another woman before you would consider it a pastor disqualifying action?

Clearly, being unfaithful to his wife would be disqualifying.  Do we know that this was a secret relationship?  If his wife didn't know that he was acting like this toward the young lady, that's a black mark for sure.

In my opinion anyone in a leadership role should be held to a higher standard of conduct or they would not be able to counsel someone heading down a wrong path that could lead to a disqualifying action.

As I previously stated, I think the tone is a bit flirtatious -- it COULD just be friendly.  I think it is unwise for an older man to text a teen in this manner.

The Scripture gives qualifications for pastors, and "never making an unwise decision" is not one of them.

If one chooses to put a dark outlook, this series of messages is probably exactly how Jack Schaap started out...

Of all the people I text, my wife gets 98% of all text messages and call time.  It's a red flag that he is texting her so much.

It could just be friendly but WHBC teaches 1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." If an OBC or WHBS student was in this same position they would most likely be expelled or given so many demerits it would take the rest of their schooling to work them off (free labor).

He shold be willing to face the same consequences as he would impose on others. I have known OBC students get expelled for similar actions and were required to take the semester over again if they wanted to graduate and WHBS student who recieved demerits and could no longer participate in sports becasue of his sin.

Tommy Boy needs to practice what he preaches or preach what he practices, as of today they are not the same thing which would disqualify him as a pastor. As I said before there are around 45 other families that believe this too and no longer attend WHBC.

 

[Walt]

The texts seem light-hearted, encouraging, and the kind of thing I expect friends exchange.

Thanks so much for such a relevant, Christ-like refutation.  This is sure to win me over to your point of view.

-sarcasm off-

 

[FreeToBeMe]

He stated in his letter that "the Lord brought to light that I was doing wrong".

Was he "found out", or was he actually convicted and admit this on his own?

 

[TruthBearer]

He stated in his letter that "the Lord brought to light that I was doing wrong".

Was he "found out", or was he actually convicted and admit this on his own?

The Lord brought it to light by using staff members to point it out to him. He only admitted wrong doing after he was approached because he could no longer hide it.

The text messages posted here are only from one of the girls. It would be interesting to see some of the other 13 women's text messages.

JAV once said if a wife doesn't keep her husband "happy" at home he will look for "happiness" with other women. Some how he uses this as an excuse for his son's behavior.

 

[Walt]

Clearly, being unfaithful to his wife would be disqualifying.  Do we know that this was a secret relationship?  If his wife didn't know that he was acting like this toward the young lady, that's a black mark for sure.

In my opinion anyone in a leadership role should be held to a higher standard of conduct or they would not be able to counsel someone heading down a wrong path that could lead to a disqualifying action.

As I previously stated, I think the tone is a bit flirtatious -- it COULD just be friendly.  I think it is unwise for an older man to text a teen in this manner.

The Scripture gives qualifications for pastors, and "never making an unwise decision" is not one of them.

If one chooses to put a dark outlook, this series of messages is probably exactly how Jack Schaap started out...

Of all the people I text, my wife gets 98% of all text messages and call time.  It's a red flag that he is texting her so much.

It could just be friendly but WHBC teaches 1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." If an OBC or WHBS student was in this same position they would most likely be expelled or given so many demerits it would take the rest of their schooling to work them off (free labor).

This is an excellent point.  Jesus stated with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you -- if they would consider this wrong for OBC or WHBS, it is wrong for the pastor.  Of course, he did admit that it was wrong.  The issue is whether or not he should still be pastor.  I'm not sure which rule his sin may have broken; he certainly is not abstaining from all appearance of evil, which is a favorite "catch-all" preaching verse in many like churches.

He should be willing to face the same consequences as he would impose on others. I have known OBC students get expelled for similar actions and were required to take the semester over again if they wanted to graduate and WHBS student who received demerits and could no longer participate in sports because of his sin.

Per the letter, he acknowledged that he did wrong and (supposedly) made it right.  I am in no way trying to say that what he did is fine.  I believe it was wrong.  What I'm not convinced about is whether he should be allowed to remain as pastor (but see summary below).

Tommy Boy needs to practice what he preaches or preach what he practices, as of today they are not the same thing which would disqualify him as a pastor. As I said before there are around 45 other families that believe this too and no longer attend WHBC.

Yup.

Summary

Over the years, I've been friends with a couple of young women; it is very important to me that there be nothing improper about the friendship. No gift is from me alone (always from our family); I never texted them; I never even had their phone numbers - my wife sent any text message.  We just have similar interests in books and school subjects - talk is in public with people around.

Going back to the subject at hand, given TV's history in Africa (which he apparently has never told the truth about, which indicates he has never repented of the sin), and the fact that there were 14 women that he was texting in a similar manner, I'd tend to think that he should be removed as pastor, and that is how I would vote. If I were attending WHBC, I would leave -- this is just too much. As the saying goes "there's no smoke without fire" - this is just something wrong under the surface.

 

[Just me]

He stated in his letter that "the Lord brought to light that I was doing wrong".

Was he "found out", or was he actually convicted and admit this on his own?

You would have to do alot of reading to catch up on this one. 

Do you really think for a second Tom would have listened to the Lord without it coming to light by a means in which Tom or JAV could control.

The young lady who was recieving these posted texts (and many other unposted text) contacted one of the associate pastors.  She was a college student so she went to the dean of OBC about the text and he did the right thing with it.  Now it got hoim fired but he did right!!    He is a very good man!!

He researched and found more then just the one lady was recieving unwanted communications from Tommy Boy and then confronted Tom on it. The rest is history and JAV propaganda.

That is the short version.

 

[Walt]

JAV once said if a wife doesn't keep her husband "happy" at home he will look for "happiness" with other women. Some how he uses this as an excuse for his son's behavior.

That's a particularly pernicious statement - throws the blame for the wandering husband on the wife.  While it may be true that the wife SOMETIMES makes home life horrible, in the first place, it is not a reason for the husband to philander, and, in the second place, some men are just consumed by sin, and no one could make them "happy at home".

 

[FreeToBeMe]

The Lord brought it to light by using staff members to point it out to him. He only admitted wrong doing after he was approached because he could no longer hide it.

The text messages posted here are only from one of the girls. It would be interesting to see some of the other 13 women's text messages.

JAV once said if a wife doesn't keep her husband "happy" at home he will look for "happiness" with other women. Some how he uses this as an excuse for his son's behavior.

Looks to me like he was sweet talking that girl and got caught before it could go any further. 

Simply put, a man doesn't talk that way to a woman unless he's looking to get into her pants at some point.  To believe otherwise would be extremely naive.     

 

[Just me]

Looks to me like he was sweet talking that girl and got caught before it could go any further. 

Simply put, a man doesn't talk that way to a woman unless he's looking to get into her pants at some point.  To believe otherwise would be extremely naive.   

Amen and amen!!

 

[kaba]

Looks to me like he was sweet talking that girl and got caught before it could go any further. 

Simply put, a man doesn't talk that way to a woman unless he's looking to get into her pants at some point.  To believe otherwise would be extremely naive.   

Amen and amen!!

Totally agree!!!!

I understand where people thing he was being nice (not me!!)....BUT as a married man, there are lines you can not cross! He crossed the line and got caught before things could get more serious! That is just a woman's opinion! I also think if I had read that text on my husband phone, something would be hitting the fan!!

 

[Citadel of Truth]

I'm not sure which rule his sin may have broken...

How about this one just for starters?
"For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God..." Titus 1:7

 

[BALAAM]

The Lord brought it to light by using staff members to point it out to him. He only admitted wrong doing after he was approached because he could no longer hide it.

The text messages posted here are only from one of the girls. It would be interesting to see some of the other 13 women's text messages.

JAV once said if a wife doesn't keep her husband "happy" at home he will look for "happiness" with other women. Some how he uses this as an excuse for his son's behavior.

Looks to me like he was sweet talking that girl and got caught before it could go any further. 

Simply put, a man doesn't talk that way to a woman unless he's looking to get into her pants at some point.  To believe otherwise would be extremely naive.   

You mean they wear pants there now?