What would a Calvinist do if he found out "freewill" exists?

[Darkwing Duck]

I'm not following.

It's pretty simple. A command is useless if there is no ability to obey it.

You clearly don't understand the point of the law.  Sometimes I wonder if people like you actually read the Bible.  Ever. 

I can speak from personal experience that I possess the ability to obey at least 1 of God's commands.

Tell me which one.  No, don't.  I'm afraid God will teach you a hard lesson if you do.

Right. The Law was given to show the necessity for a Savior since man is incapable of obeying the law perfectly. This has nothing to do with free will.

(One time I gave, thus obeying the command in Luke 6:38 to give. - did you honestly think I had never obeyed any command in the Bible? One time I honored my parents as well.)

Your argument seems to be that if you can't choose everything then you have no choices. I took $100 to the grocery store. I couldn't buy everything in the store but I still had choices.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I'm late to the party, but I'll answer this. No.
Homicide and the execution of capital punishment are different in my mind. The guy who pulls the lever on the electric chair can not be held guilty of homicide.

I didn't ask merely about the Roman soldiers who drove the nails, but also Herod, Pontius Pilate, and presumably the high priest who were responsible for Jesus' death sentence. Were any of them guilty of his death, or are you contending that Jesus was justly executed?

And why, then, did Jesus call for their forgiveness (Luke 23:34)? If the grunts who crucified him were not culpable for his death, what were they doing wrong that required forgiveness?

This is a good question. (I don't get the relevance to the subject matter but I guess I'll bite)
I'm not sure who Jesus was forgiving. . .I guess Pilate and the Roman soldiers?
What do you think?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I'm not following.

It's pretty simple. A command is useless if there is no ability to obey it.

You clearly don't understand the point of the law.  Sometimes I wonder if people like you actually read the Bible.  Ever. 

I can speak from personal experience that I possess the ability to obey at least 1 of God's commands.

Tell me which one.  No, don't.  I'm afraid God will teach you a hard lesson if you do.

Right. The Law was given to show the necessity for a Savior since man is incapable of obeying the law perfectly. This has nothing to do with free will.

(One time I gave, thus obeying the command in Luke 6:38 to give. - did you honestly think I had never obeyed any command in the Bible? One time I honored my parents as well.)

Your argument seems to be that if you can't choose everything then you have no choices. I took $100 to the grocery store. I couldn't buy everything in the store but I still had choices.

Lousy analogy.  You're suggesting that your free will is expressed in your ability to pick and choose which commands to obey. 

Anyway, if you have free will, and a command is pointless without the ability to obey, then why do you need super powers to obey ALL of the commands?  What's stopping you from doing that? 

 

[rsc2a]

I think those attacking Calvinism (a camp I do not self-identify with) aren't even trying to understand the Calvinist position.  The Calvinist does not say people cannot choose; they say people will always choose the bad short of God's intervention. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I think those attacking Calvinism (a camp I do not self-identify with) aren't even trying to understand the Calvinist position.  The Calvinist does not say people cannot choose; they say people will always choose the bad short of God's intervention.

Exactly.  And a will that is bent in that direction is not free. 

Which is why you would need super powers to obey all God's commands. 

 

[BandGuy]

I've often thought of why Calvinist believe what they believe....... I've come to the conclusion, that has something do with providing a theological "crutch" for themselves.

They can say what they want, but I think its rather obvious that if it ever really "dawned on them" that have a freewill, they might just get very scared of their position in Christ.

What do you think a Calvinist would do if he realized..... he actually had a freewill?

Would they need a Valium? Or maybe a Ambien?

What would CU do if a Calvinist told him they believe that free will exists?  Let's see...Hi CU,

I am a Calvinist and I believe free will exists.  I also believe this does not contradict Calvinism.  Do you now need some Valium?

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I think those attacking Calvinism (a camp I do not self-identify with) aren't even trying to understand the Calvinist position.  The Calvinist does not say people cannot choose; they say people will always choose the bad short of God's intervention.

Well I certainly was not under the impression that this was their position. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

You're suggesting that your free will is expressed in your ability to pick and choose which commands to obey. 

Yes.

That is free will.

 

[BandGuy]

They would find out that God did not create their children to send to hell.

Son, I want you to know that hell might be your home and you won't be able to do a damn thing about it.
Calvinist Dad

This is nothing but a dishonest, idiotic strawman.  I have never said anything such as this to my son or anyone else.  You should repent of your dishonesty, and if you truly want to with your free will, you would.  The problem is, I'm not sure you really want to.  Maybe God will sovereignly choose to give you a heart of willful and joyful repentance one day and you will do so.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Anyway, if you have free will, and a command is pointless without the ability to obey, then why do you need super powers to obey ALL of the commands?  What's stopping you from doing that?

So many factors limit our ability to obey all God's commands.
I have free will when I drive. Yet I can't go 300mph in my car. I also can't drive under water. But that doesn't mean I have no free will at all.

 

[BandGuy]

Can my "free will" ever overrule the sovereignty of God, or lets say it another way...can my "free will" ever trump God's will?


Gonna go make some popcorn while you free willy heretics figure this out.    8)

I don't know about overruling him ... but ...

God "wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." according 1 Timothy 2:4. But, obviously, not everyone wants God.

In Genesis 6:6 God "was sorry he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain." It seems that if humans didn't sin, or be so evil, God wouldn't have flooded the earth.

What about prayer? "And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?" Luke 18:7. We learn about the widow who kept bugging the judge. We pray and sometimes God hears our pray and helps us ... according to his will ... yes ... but if we didn't pray what would have happened?

Eve could have said no to the snake. Jesus came to earth to prove he could live life and say "no" to the evil one. Was not Jesus, God in Flesh, ever persuaded to walk right when he was thinking of walking left? He was human, is it a sin to change your mind?

I believe we all have a choice in life. All of us. We choose God, or we choose self. God wanted Eve to say no to that snake, but she said yes. She could have changed history.

So, you can trump God....

God has complete control over His creation...that includes you.  EVERYTHING that He created He controls.  Looking at our lives from our earthly view it can give us the belief that we through our devices we control our lives, but may I remind you the scriptures tell us that even our very steps are ordered by Him....so think about that next time you walk down the street.

So if I walk down the street, step into a bar, drink until I almost pass out, sleep with a girl I meet ... this is from God?

I a group of people took a righteous, innocent people, accused Him falsely, brought false witnesses, had Him flogged and crucified...this is from God?  Yes or no?

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Can my "free will" ever overrule the sovereignty of God, or lets say it another way...can my "free will" ever trump God's will?


Gonna go make some popcorn while you free willy heretics figure this out.    8)

I don't know about overruling him ... but ...

God "wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." according 1 Timothy 2:4. But, obviously, not everyone wants God.

In Genesis 6:6 God "was sorry he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain." It seems that if humans didn't sin, or be so evil, God wouldn't have flooded the earth.

What about prayer? "And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?" Luke 18:7. We learn about the widow who kept bugging the judge. We pray and sometimes God hears our pray and helps us ... according to his will ... yes ... but if we didn't pray what would have happened?

Eve could have said no to the snake. Jesus came to earth to prove he could live life and say "no" to the evil one. Was not Jesus, God in Flesh, ever persuaded to walk right when he was thinking of walking left? He was human, is it a sin to change your mind?

I believe we all have a choice in life. All of us. We choose God, or we choose self. God wanted Eve to say no to that snake, but she said yes. She could have changed history.

So, you can trump God....

God has complete control over His creation...that includes you.  EVERYTHING that He created He controls.  Looking at our lives from our earthly view it can give us the belief that we through our devices we control our lives, but may I remind you the scriptures tell us that even our very steps are ordered by Him....so think about that next time you walk down the street.

So if I walk down the street, step into a bar, drink until I almost pass out, sleep with a girl I meet ... this is from God?

I a group of people took a righteous, innocent people, accused Him falsely, brought false witnesses, had Him flogged and crucified...this is from God?  Yes or no?

Yes, the crucifixion was ordained by God to save all mankind. Are you suggesting that if tim "walk down the street, step into a bar, drink until I almost pass out, sleep with a girl I meet" it will save all mankind?

 

[BandGuy]

Can my "free will" ever overrule the sovereignty of God, or lets say it another way...can my "free will" ever trump God's will?


Gonna go make some popcorn while you free willy heretics figure this out.    8)

Nope.

Do you have a point to your question?

Besides trying to enlighten your understanding of the Sovereignty of God...nope kinda useless.

There's been a lot of evil in the world attributed to the "Sovereignty of God". You do your Master disservice.

He ordained the greatest evil committed by man.

You're being silly. No greater love was shown. No greater love.

You then turn around and present a Gospel that has no hope for some and no fear for others.

Still the greatest evil ever done by man.

BTW: No person will be in hell that wanted to come to Christ but was refused, and no person in heaven that didn't repent and follow Christ.
God knows the wheat from the tares.

Do you know how silly that is?

Somehow you think God's knowledge is the same thing as God's divine action. God knows the future because HE CREATES THAT FUTURE. Its called Omnipotence.

Arminian Dad:  It was not God's will that some would be saved and some wouldn't, He just knew that some would choose Him and some wouldn't and predestined them based on that foreknowledge.

Son:  So, If God knew some would reject Him before they were even born, then why did He create them.

Arminian Dad:  Because being the loving Father He is, He wanted to give them the opportunity to exercise their outright rebellion and rot in Hell for all of eternity.

Son:  What a loving father He is...such a gentleman.

 

[BandGuy]

He ordained the greatest evil committed by man.

The murder of his own people, the Jews.

No, the murder of his own Son, the Christ.

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know - this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men." (Acts 2:22-23)

When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit,

"'Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed' -

for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." (Acts 4:23-28)

Joh 15:13  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Why don't you produce one verse where God called Calvary "evil". God doesn't bring forth "evil fruit".

You don't believe that Calvary was the work of evil men?  Pilate, the Pharisees, and the crowded mob were all righteous and did a great service to the world?  Or, did an infinitely Holy, righteous and sovereign God orchestrate all of that sin by His divine will to display Hos ultimate victory over sin and death to exalt His glorious Name to all the earth?

 

[BandGuy]

Here's a quote...guess who from...?

"God withholds forgiveness from no one who needs and seeks it. If that applies to you today, confess your sins and be forgiven."


Calvinist or non?

Calvinist...at least it sounds like something I would say in a sermon or Bible Study.

 

[BandGuy]

Since it is Christ, it is called a sacrifice. One where he laid down his life for us.

Are the people who crucified Christ guilty of deliberate homicide, or not? Stop being a weasel and answer the question.

I'm late to the party, but I'll answer this. No.
Homicide and the execution of capital punishment are different in my mind. The guy who pulls the lever on the electric chair can not be held guilty of homicide.

— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

  Acts 2

A few key words in this verse here:

1.  Definite:  g3724. ὁρίζω horizō; from 3725; to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i. e. (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify:— declare, determine, limit, ordain.
2.  Plan:  g1012. βουλή boulē; from 1014; volition, i. e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose:— +advise, counsel, will.
AV (12)- counsel 10, will 1, advise +g5087 1;
counsel, purpose
3.  killed:  g0337. ἀναιρέω anaireō; from 303 and (the active of) 138; to take up, i. e. adopt; by implication, to take away (violently), i. e. abolish, murder:—
4.  Lawless:  g0459. ἄνομος anomos; from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3551; lawless, i. e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:— without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

Mull all of these words and their definitions in context with each other in this verse over in your minds for a little bit. 

 

[BandGuy]

Read Luke 6:35-38 (or most of the Bible)
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Commandments necessitate free will.

Hello.  I am a Calvinist and I believe in free will and do not think it contradicts Calvinism. 

 

[Biker]

Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened


No one seeks after him on their own accord but God has his many ways in drawing us ^^^ and darkening our hearts if we so reject him

 

[BandGuy]

I'm not following.

It's pretty simple. A command is useless if there is no ability to obey it.

I can speak from personal experience that I possess the ability to obey at least 1 of God's commands. Have you never obeyed ANY of God's commands?

You seem to be suggesting that God's commands are pointless.

I'm sorry, but Jesus does not agree with your logic:

16And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

23And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Matthew 19

 

[BandGuy]

I can speak from personal experience that I possess the ability to obey at least 1 of God's commands. Have you never obeyed ANY of God's commands?

He's just a cut above the rest of us poor slobs, don't you know...