What would a Calvinist do if he found out "freewill" exists?

[BandGuy]

I'm not following.

It's pretty simple. A command is useless if there is no ability to obey it.

You clearly don't understand the point of the law.  Sometimes I wonder if people like you actually read the Bible.  Ever. 

I can speak from personal experience that I possess the ability to obey at least 1 of God's commands.

Tell me which one.  No, don't.  I'm afraid God will teach you a hard lesson if you do.

Right. The Law was given to show the necessity for a Savior since man is incapable of obeying the law perfectly. This has nothing to do with free will.

(One time I gave, thus obeying the command in Luke 6:38 to give. - did you honestly think I had never obeyed any command in the Bible? One time I honored my parents as well.)

Your argument seems to be that if you can't choose everything then you have no choices. I took $100 to the grocery store. I couldn't buy everything in the store but I still had choices.

If you had enough free will, couldn't you will yourself to obey every command God ever gave perfectly?  And, if not, does that negate the meaning of His commands as you seem to be saying about Calvinism?  Your argument seems to be that if you're good enough to obey one or two commands from time to time that surely you have enough free will to change your own heart from being an enemy of God to being one who loves, seeks after and follows God.  I have to tell you that Scripture disagrees with you.

 

[BandGuy]

You're suggesting that your free will is expressed in your ability to pick and choose which commands to obey. 

Yes.

That is free will.

Such free will choices will never be enough to save you.  Just letting you know.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I'm not following.

It's pretty simple. A command is useless if there is no ability to obey it.

You clearly don't understand the point of the law.  Sometimes I wonder if people like you actually read the Bible.  Ever. 

I can speak from personal experience that I possess the ability to obey at least 1 of God's commands.

Tell me which one.  No, don't.  I'm afraid God will teach you a hard lesson if you do.

Right. The Law was given to show the necessity for a Savior since man is incapable of obeying the law perfectly. This has nothing to do with free will.

(One time I gave, thus obeying the command in Luke 6:38 to give. - did you honestly think I had never obeyed any command in the Bible? One time I honored my parents as well.)

Your argument seems to be that if you can't choose everything then you have no choices. I took $100 to the grocery store. I couldn't buy everything in the store but I still had choices.

If you had enough free will, couldn't you will yourself to obey every command God ever gave perfectly?  And, if not, does that negate the meaning of His commands as you seem to be saying about Calvinism?  Your argument seems to be that if you're good enough to obey one or two commands from time to time that surely you have enough free will to change your own heart from being an enemy of God to being one who loves, seeks after and follows God.  I have to tell you that Scripture disagrees with you.

That is not my argument. I agree with scripture (and general Calvinist doctrine) in regard to salvation.
My argument is that free will exists outside of salvation.

 

[BandGuy]

Anyway, if you have free will, and a command is pointless without the ability to obey, then why do you need super powers to obey ALL of the commands?  What's stopping you from doing that?

So many factors limit our ability to obey all God's commands.
I have free will when I drive. Yet I can't go 300mph in my car. I also can't drive under water. But that doesn't mean I have no free will at all.

Specifically, name one factor which limits our ability to obey all of God's commands without sounding like a Calvinist.  Thanks.

 

[BandGuy]

I'm not following.

It's pretty simple. A command is useless if there is no ability to obey it.

You clearly don't understand the point of the law.  Sometimes I wonder if people like you actually read the Bible.  Ever. 

I can speak from personal experience that I possess the ability to obey at least 1 of God's commands.

Tell me which one.  No, don't.  I'm afraid God will teach you a hard lesson if you do.

Right. The Law was given to show the necessity for a Savior since man is incapable of obeying the law perfectly. This has nothing to do with free will.

(One time I gave, thus obeying the command in Luke 6:38 to give. - did you honestly think I had never obeyed any command in the Bible? One time I honored my parents as well.)

Your argument seems to be that if you can't choose everything then you have no choices. I took $100 to the grocery store. I couldn't buy everything in the store but I still had choices.

If you had enough free will, couldn't you will yourself to obey every command God ever gave perfectly?  And, if not, does that negate the meaning of His commands as you seem to be saying about Calvinism?  Your argument seems to be that if you're good enough to obey one or two commands from time to time that surely you have enough free will to change your own heart from being an enemy of God to being one who loves, seeks after and follows God.  I have to tell you that Scripture disagrees with you.

That is not my argument. I agree with scripture (and general Calvinist doctrine) in regard to salvation.
My argument is that free will exists outside of salvation.

If God does not change our hearts and give us a desire to follow him, and we aren't saved because of that little spark of goodness within us that helps us to choose Christ of our own free will, then pray tell, what do you believe brings us to Christ?  What is your argument, because honestly, right now, you don't seem to be making much sense right now.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Anyway, if you have free will, and a command is pointless without the ability to obey, then why do you need super powers to obey ALL of the commands?  What's stopping you from doing that?

So many factors limit our ability to obey all God's commands.
I have free will when I drive. Yet I can't go 300mph in my car. I also can't drive under water. But that doesn't mean I have no free will at all.

Specifically, name one factor which limits our ability to obey all of God's commands without sounding like a Calvinist.  Thanks.

You realize I agree with you. I agree with Calvinist doctrine in regards to salvation.
I just disagree with the notion that free will does not exist in any form.

Sin nature. That's a factor which limits our ability to obey all of God's commands.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Hello.  I am a Calvinist and I believe in free will and do not think it contradicts Calvinism.

This is my argument. Sorry if I'm not making sense. 

 

[Holy Mole]

I'm late to the party, but I'll answer this. No.
Homicide and the execution of capital punishment are different in my mind. The guy who pulls the lever on the electric chair can not be held guilty of homicide.

I didn't ask merely about the Roman soldiers who drove the nails, but also Herod, Pontius Pilate, and presumably the high priest who were responsible for Jesus' death sentence. Were any of them guilty of his death, or are you contending that Jesus was justly executed?

And why, then, did Jesus call for their forgiveness (Luke 23:34)? If the grunts who crucified him were not culpable for his death, what were they doing wrong that required forgiveness?

Of course they were guilty.

God, in His foreknowledge, knows of every single sin that has and will be committed. This does not mean that He chooses and or ordains that each sin be committed. Being omniscient, God can allow man a choice and still accomplish His ultimate will. He's that good!

 

[BandGuy]

I'm late to the party, but I'll answer this. No.
Homicide and the execution of capital punishment are different in my mind. The guy who pulls the lever on the electric chair can not be held guilty of homicide.

I didn't ask merely about the Roman soldiers who drove the nails, but also Herod, Pontius Pilate, and presumably the high priest who were responsible for Jesus' death sentence. Were any of them guilty of his death, or are you contending that Jesus was justly executed?

And why, then, did Jesus call for their forgiveness (Luke 23:34)? If the grunts who crucified him were not culpable for his death, what were they doing wrong that required forgiveness?

Of course they were guilty.

God, in His foreknowledge, knows of every single sin that has and will be committed. This does not mean that He chooses and or ordains that each sin be committed. Being omniscient, God can allow man a choice and still accomplish His ultimate will. He's that good!

— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God

Acts 2

Delivered:  g1560. ἔκδοτος ekdotos; from 1537 and a derivative of 1325; given out or over, i. e. surrendered:— delivered.
AV (1)- be delivered 1;
given over, delivered up to enemies, or to the power, the will, of some one

Definite:  g3724. ὁρίζω horizō; from 3725; to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i. e. (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify:— declare, determine, limit, ordain.

Plan:  g1012. βουλή boulē; from 1014; volition, i. e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose:— +advise, counsel, will.
AV (12)- counsel 10, will 1, advise +g5087 1;
counsel, purpose

Don't look now, but it appears that Scripture seems to be teaching that God had something to do with what the wicked people did and that He also ordained it as well.

 

[Holy Mole]

I'm late to the party, but I'll answer this. No.
Homicide and the execution of capital punishment are different in my mind. The guy who pulls the lever on the electric chair can not be held guilty of homicide.

I didn't ask merely about the Roman soldiers who drove the nails, but also Herod, Pontius Pilate, and presumably the high priest who were responsible for Jesus' death sentence. Were any of them guilty of his death, or are you contending that Jesus was justly executed?

And why, then, did Jesus call for their forgiveness (Luke 23:34)? If the grunts who crucified him were not culpable for his death, what were they doing wrong that required forgiveness?

Of course they were guilty.

God, in His foreknowledge, knows of every single sin that has and will be committed. This does not mean that He chooses and or ordains that each sin be committed. Being omniscient, God can allow man a choice and still accomplish His ultimate will. He's that good!

— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God

Acts 2

Delivered:  g1560. ἔκδοτος ekdotos; from 1537 and a derivative of 1325; given out or over, i. e. surrendered:— delivered.
AV (1)- be delivered 1;
given over, delivered up to enemies, or to the power, the will, of some one

Definite:  g3724. ὁρίζω horizō; from 3725; to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i. e. (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify:— declare, determine, limit, ordain.

Plan:  g1012. βουλή boulē; from 1014; volition, i. e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose:— +advise, counsel, will.
AV (12)- counsel 10, will 1, advise +g5087 1;
counsel, purpose

Don't look now, but it appears that Scripture seems to be teaching that God had something to do with what the wicked people did and that He also ordained it as well.

You are correct. The death, burial and resurrection of Christ were the most important events in human history. Of course they were ordained to happen as they did. I also believe that each player in this drama made a choice and is guilty for that choice. The concepts of freewill and sovereignty seem hard to reconcile but both are taught in scripture unless you insist on wresting scripture to eliminate the one that doesn't fit into your understanding.

 

[christundivided]

I think those attacking Calvinism (a camp I do not self-identify with) aren't even trying to understand the Calvinist position.  The Calvinist does not say people cannot choose; they say people will always choose the bad short of God's intervention.

This is a lie. A plain and simple lie. You throw in their teaching of foreordination in God choice and man's choice becomes irrelevant. I've debate hundreds of Calvinist and they all hold to this position. Even armenism teaches pretty much the same thing..... Both systems talk outside the sides their mouths.

 

[Reformed Guy]

What would a Calvinist do if he found out "freewill" exists?

He would affirm a confession that affirmed the existence of "freewill."

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/wcf.htm#chap9

Ah... the old bait and switch.

You say you believe in freewill but you really don't. This is a long been a staple of Calvinist's inane teaching.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.

Deceptive.... to say the least.

OK.  Will yourself to not sin any more (this side of glory).

Let us know how that goes.

 

[Reformed Guy]

Read Luke 6:35-38 (or most of the Bible)
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Commandments necessitate free will.

Ok.  Will yourself to perfectly keep all the commandments.

Let us know how that goes.

 

[Reformed Guy]

Read Luke 6:35-38 (or most of the Bible)
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Commandments necessitate free will.

Then decide of your own free will to obey them.  All of them.  Perfectly. 

Let me know how it works out for you.

Ah... beat me to it.

 

[christundivided]

So many factors limit our ability to obey all God's commands.
I have free will when I drive. Yet I can't go 300mph in my car. I also can't drive under water. But that doesn't mean I have no free will at all.

NOW you are starting to see the Calvinist point.

A spiritually hostile, spiritually dead corpse needs the gifts of supernatural regeneration and faith to make a positive decision for Christ.

He cannot and will not do it without God.

And God has given a remedy. A supernatural work.... called the Gospel. What you Calvinists ignore is the intrinsic and innate power of the Gospel. This exactly what Christ alluded to when He said...

Joh 12:32  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You pretend or charge that natural man can not respond to a message... that is given through man to mankind. A message that bridges the heavenly and the earthly. The message of Hope.

You teach that God has foreordain those who be regenerated so as to respond to the Gospel.... and those who reject the message and be damned. You say you believe in freewill.... when you don't. You say that man is powerless to respond without the divine intervention of the God Himself....

When in fact, the Gospel ITSELF is GOD'S INTERVENTION in humanity.

 

[christundivided]

Read Luke 6:35-38 (or most of the Bible)
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Commandments necessitate free will.

Ok.  Will yourself to perfectly keep all the commandments.

Let us know how that goes.

You're intermixing entirely different aspects of God purpose. Paul spoke of the man that God would refuse to impute sin.

Rom 4:8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

This is blessing given to those who freely choose Christ as their Savior.

 

[BandGuy]

I'm late to the party, but I'll answer this. No.
Homicide and the execution of capital punishment are different in my mind. The guy who pulls the lever on the electric chair can not be held guilty of homicide.

I didn't ask merely about the Roman soldiers who drove the nails, but also Herod, Pontius Pilate, and presumably the high priest who were responsible for Jesus' death sentence. Were any of them guilty of his death, or are you contending that Jesus was justly executed?

And why, then, did Jesus call for their forgiveness (Luke 23:34)? If the grunts who crucified him were not culpable for his death, what were they doing wrong that required forgiveness?

Of course they were guilty.

God, in His foreknowledge, knows of every single sin that has and will be committed. This does not mean that He chooses and or ordains that each sin be committed. Being omniscient, God can allow man a choice and still accomplish His ultimate will. He's that good!

— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God

Acts 2

Delivered:  g1560. ἔκδοτος ekdotos; from 1537 and a derivative of 1325; given out or over, i. e. surrendered:— delivered.
AV (1)- be delivered 1;
given over, delivered up to enemies, or to the power, the will, of some one

Definite:  g3724. ὁρίζω horizō; from 3725; to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i. e. (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify:— declare, determine, limit, ordain.

Plan:  g1012. βουλή boulē; from 1014; volition, i. e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose:— +advise, counsel, will.
AV (12)- counsel 10, will 1, advise +g5087 1;
counsel, purpose

Don't look now, but it appears that Scripture seems to be teaching that God had something to do with what the wicked people did and that He also ordained it as well.

You are correct. The death, burial and resurrection of Christ were the most important events in human history. Of course they were ordained to happen as they did. I also believe that each player in this drama made a choice and is guilty for that choice. The concepts of freewill and sovereignty seem hard to reconcile but both are taught in scripture unless you insist on wresting scripture to eliminate the one that doesn't fit into your understanding.

We agree here...so far.

 

[subllibrm]

Well I certainly was not under the impression that this was their position. Thank you for clarifying.

^ This answers a lot of questions. ^

Like why does tim keep spamming the board with variations on the same question? Because he either doesn't understand or refuses to listen to the answers.

I would not call myself a calvinist (at least not in the "reformed, covenant theology" sense) but I do believe in "chosen before the foundation of the world". I also believe in "whosoever will". So I find this whole goose chase a little silly. And I find the misrepresentation of what people believe abhorrent. Seems to be going both directions but the worst is for sure coming from the anti-calvinists.

 

[BandGuy]

I think those attacking Calvinism (a camp I do not self-identify with) aren't even trying to understand the Calvinist position.  The Calvinist does not say people cannot choose; they say people will always choose the bad short of God's intervention.

This is a lie. A plain and simple lie. You throw in their teaching of foreordination in God choice and man's choice becomes irrelevant. I've debate hundreds of Calvinist and they all hold to this position. Even armenism teaches pretty much the same thing..... Both systems talk outside the sides their mouths.

And all CU does is ramble on incomprehensibly and hurl insults. Man's choice is not irrelevant.  It is, ultimately, what will condemn him forever in Hell if he dies in his sin and rebellion.  Unless God changes a heart, everyone would die in their sin and rebellion.

 

[rsc2a]

Well I certainly was not under the impression that this was their position. Thank you for clarifying.

^ This answers a lot of questions. ^

Like why does tim keep spamming the board with variations on the same question? Because he either doesn't understand or refuses to listen to the answers.

Or he's trolling...

...I do believe in "chosen before the foundation of the world". I also believe in "whosoever will". So I find this whole goose chase a little silly. And I find the misrepresentation of what people believe abhorrent. Seems to be going both directions but the worst is for sure coming from the anti-calvinists.

*nods*