What would a Calvinist do if he found out "freewill" exists?

[subllibrm]

Read Luke 6:35-38 (or most of the Bible)
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Commandments necessitate free will.

Hello.  I am a Calvinist and I believe in free will and do not think it contradicts Calvinism.

Hello.  I am calvinistic and I believe in free will and do not think it contradicts "chosen before the foundation of the world" election.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Read Luke 6:35-38 (or most of the Bible)
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Commandments necessitate free will.

Hello.  I am a Calvinist and I believe in free will and do not think it contradicts Calvinism.

Hello.  I am a calvinistic and I believe in free will and do not think it contradicts "chosen before the foundation of the world" election.

Hello.  I'm Rogue, and I'm an pizzaholic. 

Whoops.  Wrong room.  Never mind. 

 

[subllibrm]

Read Luke 6:35-38 (or most of the Bible)
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Commandments necessitate free will.

Hello.  I am a Calvinist and I believe in free will and do not think it contradicts Calvinism.

Hello.  I am calvinistic and I believe in free will and do not think it contradicts "chosen before the foundation of the world" election.

Hello.  I'm Rogue, and I'm an pizzaholic. 

Whoops.  Wrong room.  Never mind.

Crowd: "hello Rogue"

 

[Bruh]

I think those attacking Calvinism (a camp I do not self-identify with) aren't even trying to understand the Calvinist position.  The Calvinist does not say people cannot choose; they say people will always choose the bad short of God's intervention.

Exactly.  And a will that is bent in that direction is not free. 

Which is why you would need super powers to obey all God's commands.

So, what Calvinist believe is that, everyone on earth has a "choice" to be "chosen" by God or not?

And if they "choose" not to be "chosen" then God has created them to be sent to hell?

 

[Ransom]

Of course they were guilty.

God, in His foreknowledge, knows of every single sin that has and will be committed. This does not mean that He chooses and or ordains that each sin be committed. Being omniscient, God can allow man a choice and still accomplish His ultimate will. He's that good!

So was Jesus' crucifixion merely "allowed" or was it foreordained?

[I]n this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:27-28)

 

[christundivided]

I think those attacking Calvinism (a camp I do not self-identify with) aren't even trying to understand the Calvinist position.  The Calvinist does not say people cannot choose; they say people will always choose the bad short of God's intervention.

This is a lie. A plain and simple lie. You throw in their teaching of foreordination in God choice and man's choice becomes irrelevant. I've debate hundreds of Calvinist and they all hold to this position. Even armenism teaches pretty much the same thing..... Both systems talk outside the sides their mouths.

And all CU does is ramble on incomprehensibly and hurl insults. Man's choice is not irrelevant.  It is, ultimately, what will condemn him forever in Hell if he dies in his sin and rebellion.  Unless God changes a heart, everyone would die in their sin and rebellion.

Your sword is dull and useless. I'm not the one whining about "insults". You know you talk out both sides of your mouth.

 

[Biker]

Now everyone agree with what's below and we can shut this thread down!


Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because of that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened[/u]


No one seeks after him on their own accord but God has his many ways in drawing us ^^^ and darkening our hearts if we so reject him

.

 

[Biker]

I've often thought of why Calvinist believe what they believe....... I've come to the conclusion, that has something do with providing a theological "crutch" for themselves.

They can say what they want, but I think its rather obvious that if it ever really "dawned on them" that have a freewill, they might just get very scared of their position in Christ.

What do you think a Calvinist would do if he realized..... he actually had a freewill?

Would they need a Valium? Or maybe a Ambien?

It would be Resperidol. That's what they prescribe for Asperger's (very small doses).

It's this group who seem overwhelmingly drawn to Calvinism. And Computer occupations

 

[bruinboy]

I think those attacking Calvinism (a camp I do not self-identify with) aren't even trying to understand the Calvinist position.  The Calvinist does not say people cannot choose; they say people will always choose the bad short of God's intervention.

This is a lie. A plain and simple lie. You throw in their teaching of foreordination in God choice and man's choice becomes irrelevant. I've debate hundreds of Calvinist and they all hold to this position. Even armenism teaches pretty much the same thing..... Both systems talk outside the sides their mouths.

Sorry, but as part of my free will, I don't believe you.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Hello.  I'm Rogue, and I'm an pizzaholic. 

Whoops.  Wrong room.  Never mind.

Pizza has a pasta sauce in it that's made from tomatoes. What are you? some sick cannibal?

;D

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Of course they were guilty.

God, in His foreknowledge, knows of every single sin that has and will be committed. This does not mean that He chooses and or ordains that each sin be committed. Being omniscient, God can allow man a choice and still accomplish His ultimate will. He's that good!

So was Jesus' crucifixion merely "allowed" or was it foreordained?

I may be jumping too far ahead of you but if you prove that God foreordained man to sin by crucifying Christ that's a far cry from proving that God foreordains a man to sin who rapes a child. One event saves the entire world, one does not.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

What would a Calvinist do if he found out "freewill" exists?

He would affirm a confession that affirmed the existence of "freewill."

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/wcf.htm#chap9

Ah... the old bait and switch.

You say you believe in freewill but you really don't. This is a long been a staple of Calvinist's inane teaching.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.

Deceptive.... to say the least.

OK.  Will yourself to not sin any more (this side of glory).

Let us know how that goes.

Oh look, another "free will is magic" argument.

Free will says that if I have a cookie and a brownie in front of me then I can choose which one to eat. Free will does not say that I can spontaneously make a cupcake appear out of thin air and eat that instead.

I am a male. (I made a free will choice whether or not to lie in that sentence, I cannot make a free will choice whether or not to lie ever again for the rest of my life.)

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Of course they were guilty.

God, in His foreknowledge, knows of every single sin that has and will be committed. This does not mean that He chooses and or ordains that each sin be committed. Being omniscient, God can allow man a choice and still accomplish His ultimate will. He's that good!

So was Jesus' crucifixion merely "allowed" or was it foreordained?

I may be jumping too far ahead of you but if you prove that God foreordained man to sin by crucifying Christ that's a far cry from proving that God foreordains a man to sin who rapes a child. One event saves the entire world, one does not.

If God did not foreordain sin, then God is a moron.  After all, Satan could not get into the garden without God's permission. 

And I'm pretty sure God was not taken surprised by what happened.  "Satan deceived the woman???  I'm SHOCKED!!! SHOCKED, I tell you!"  God would have to get the Louis Renault award for that. 

God could have prevented the fall by NOT placing the forbidden tree in the garden, and/or by keeping Satan out if it.  It the fall was so easy to prevent (and it was), then one must question why God didn't do it. 

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Of course they were guilty.

God, in His foreknowledge, knows of every single sin that has and will be committed. This does not mean that He chooses and or ordains that each sin be committed. Being omniscient, God can allow man a choice and still accomplish His ultimate will. He's that good!

So was Jesus' crucifixion merely "allowed" or was it foreordained?

I may be jumping too far ahead of you but if you prove that God foreordained man to sin by crucifying Christ that's a far cry from proving that God foreordains a man to sin who rapes a child. One event saves the entire world, one does not.

If God did not foreordain sin, then God is a moron.  After all, Satan could not get into the garden without God's permission. 

And I'm pretty sure God was not taken surprised by what happened.  "Satan deceived the woman???  I'm SHOCKED!!! SHOCKED, I tell you!"  God would have to get the Louis Renault award for that. 

God could have prevented the fall by NOT placing the forbidden tree in the garden, and/or by keeping Satan out if it.  It the fall was so easy to prevent (and it was), then one must question why God didn't do it.

Yes, the fall of man would be included in the "God foreordained certain sins" category along with the crucifixion.

But it doesn't follow that God "foreordained" child rape. (If by foreordained you mean he caused it to happen)

 

[Ransom]

One event saves the entire world, one does not.

No it doesn't. It makes 'em savable, nothing more.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

One event saves the entire world, one does not.

No it doesn't. It makes 'em savable, nothing more.

Yes, but my point was that the events have vastly different importance in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Ransom]

Yes, but my point was that the events have vastly different importance in the grand scheme of things.

So please tell us, where do we draw the line between "event important for God to ordain the evils that set them in motion," and "unimportant event outside of God's control"?

It's somewhere in between crucifying the Messiah and raping a little girl, according to you, so perhaps you can be more specific.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Yes, but my point was that the events have vastly different importance in the grand scheme of things.

So please tell us, where do we draw the line between "event important for God to ordain the evils that set them in motion," and "unimportant event outside of God's control"?

It's somewhere in between crucifying the Messiah and raping a little girl, according to you, so perhaps you can be more specific.

I have no idea. Are you saying there is no line?

 

[Holy Mole]

Yes, but my point was that the events have vastly different importance in the grand scheme of things.

So please tell us, where do we draw the line between "event important for God to ordain the evils that set them in motion," and "unimportant event outside of God's control"?

It's somewhere in between crucifying the Messiah and raping a little girl, according to you, so perhaps you can be more specific.

in the context of the discussion on "freewill" God seems to use many different methods to accomplish His ordained objective:

He hardened Pharaoh's heart in Exodus,

In Jeremiah he sent judgement because his people hardened their own hearts:

Jeremiah 19:15 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words.

In John 6 he manipulated the circumstances not the hearts or wills of the people to accomplish his objective.

John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world. 15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

In Romans 11 He caused blindness in part to Israel because of their own unbelief.

My point?

God does not have to cause or make something happen in order to control it. He may or He may not. He may do as He wishes but does not make us always "will" to do as He wishes. This sounds confusing but before you accuse me of sophistry or something else, Paul himself did not understand the mystery which God used him to pen into scripture:

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

All this is to say you ask for a specific line that no man can possibly draw.

 

[subllibrm]

"My ways are not your ways" - God

I am perfectly content with that.