Does God learn?

[FSSL]

God directs the heart of the king (psalms)

Joseph's brothers intended to bring evil but God intended it for good. (Genesis)

The events and people surrounding the death of Christ were all predetermined (Acts)

Yet... somehow... you, alone, are outside God's Sovereign control and He did not plan your life?

 

[Bo]

God directs the heart of the king (psalms)

He does this with us today....I can point in any direction...but its up to you to make the decision to go where I point.  His convictions tell us where we should go and act and how we should choose....but we still choose.

Joseph's brothers intended to bring evil but God intended it for good. (Genesis)

I never said he would never intervene.    And question....doesn't this contradict what you are saying?  How could they intend evil if God intended good and God controlled their intentions?  lol....thank you for that credit to my argument!

The events and people surrounding the death of Christ were all predetermined (Acts)

God knew that the world was evil and that when He made Himself human and preached truth people would not wanna hear it (much like calvinists) and would crucify Him for it....they made those decisions.....that is why He chose this time to become human.

Yet... somehow... you, alone, are outside God's Sovereign control and He did not plan your life?

Nope!  you too buddy!!  and everyone else.  That's what the Bible teaches anyway.....

 

[rsc2a]

God predestined all things... even everything you did today...

Did you fight against it? Nope. You did what you wanted to do.

Are you kidding? He still hasn't given me one example of a choice he made that wasn't based on factors outside of himself.

To say nothing of the really troublesome part of his theology...where Satan came from.

 

[Bo]

God predestined all things... even everything you did today...

Did you fight against it? Nope. You did what you wanted to do.

Are you kidding? He still hasn't given me one example of a choice he made that wasn't based on factors outside of himself.

To say nothing of the really troublesome part of his theology...where Satan came from.

every decision that I can remember making DID I say DID come from factors outside of me.  But God didn't FORCE me to make that certain decision.......even thou He knew what I was going to choose.  He gave me the free will to choose it. 

Not saying He didn't make the environment and the rules I gotta choose by....but He never has forced a choice. 

like a mouse in a maze....you build the maze......you make the environment...you make the correct travel route....but its up to the mouse to turn left or right 

 

[Bo]

God predestined all things... even everything you did today...

Did you fight against it? Nope. You did what you wanted to do.

I just don't believe it.....and im not limiting God by NO MEANS! 

does He know everything im going to do?  yes! 

does He control everything im going to do?  no!

just because He knows the choices ill make and knows the choices EVERYONE will make....doesn't mean He forces them on us....

if that's the case....there would be no need for salvation.....or for Him sharing His plan of salvation....

it just don't add up....explain why if we have no choice in the matter He gave us the plan of salvation?
if we have no choice....why give us commandments?
why give Himself on the cross to offer us salvation?
why give us the Bible period?
why give us earthly life?

it simply makes no sense...

let me add another thing....He most certainly has the power to control my decisions and my actions......He could if He wanted to....but He chooses to let me have free will....as He does all of yall

 

[rsc2a]

God predestined all things... even everything you did today...

Did you fight against it? Nope. You did what you wanted to do.

Are you kidding? He still hasn't given me one example of a choice he made that wasn't based on factors outside of himself.

To say nothing of the really troublesome part of his theology...where Satan came from.

every decision that I can remember making DID I say DID come from factors outside of me.  But God didn't FORCE me to make that certain decision.......even thou He knew what I was going to choose.  He gave me the free will to choose it. 

Not saying He didn't make the environment and the rules I gotta choose by....but He never has forced a choice. 

like a mouse in a maze....you build the maze......you make the environment...you make the correct travel route....but its up to the mouse to turn left or right 

You need to throw away all your reference material on Calvinism. It's not about God forcing anyone to do anything.

Edited to add:

BTW: I am not a Calvinist, so insomuch as I am defending the belief system, it's because I am in agreeance on it to this point.

 

[Bo]

God predestined all things... even everything you did today...

Did you fight against it? Nope. You did what you wanted to do.

Are you kidding? He still hasn't given me one example of a choice he made that wasn't based on factors outside of himself.

To say nothing of the really troublesome part of his theology...where Satan came from.

every decision that I can remember making DID I say DID come from factors outside of me.  But God didn't FORCE me to make that certain decision.......even thou He knew what I was going to choose.  He gave me the free will to choose it. 

Not saying He didn't make the environment and the rules I gotta choose by....but He never has forced a choice. 

like a mouse in a maze....you build the maze......you make the environment...you make the correct travel route....but its up to the mouse to turn left or right 

You need to throw away all your reference material on Calvinism. It's not about God forcing anyone to do anything.

Edited to add:

BTW: I am not a Calvinist, so insomuch as I am defending the belief system, it's because I am in agreeance on it to this point.

I. Total Inability 

By total inability Calvin meant that a lost sinner cannot come to Jesus Christ and trust Him as Saviour, unless he is foreordained to come to Christ. By total inability he meant that no man has the ability to come to Christ. And unless God overpowers him and gives him that ability, he will never come to Christ




^^^^^is this a true statement?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]You need to throw away all your reference material on Calvinism. It's not about God forcing anyone to do anything.

Edited to add:

BTW: I am not a Calvinist, so insomuch as I am defending the belief system, it's because I am in agreeance on it to this point.

I. Total Inability 

By total inability Calvin meant that a lost sinner cannot come to Jesus Christ and trust Him as Saviour, unless he is foreordained to come to Christ. By total inability he meant that no man has the ability to come to Christ. And unless God overpowers him and gives him that ability, he will never come to Christ

^^^^^is this a true statement?[/quote]

Sure...in the way of a caricature. Do you have to "overpower" your wife for her to love you? Granted, it's about what I would expect a book titled Why I Disagree With All 5 Points of Calvinism.

Let's look at another definition of total depravity by a very reliable source:

[quote author=Westminster Confession]?Man, by his fall Into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.?[/quote]

Do you disagree with this statement?

 

[Bo]

[quote author=rsc2a]You need to throw away all your reference material on Calvinism. It's not about God forcing anyone to do anything.

Edited to add:

BTW: I am not a Calvinist, so insomuch as I am defending the belief system, it's because I am in agreeance on it to this point.

I. Total Inability 

By total inability Calvin meant that a lost sinner cannot come to Jesus Christ and trust Him as Saviour, unless he is foreordained to come to Christ. By total inability he meant that no man has the ability to come to Christ. And unless God overpowers him and gives him that ability, he will never come to Christ

^^^^^is this a true statement?

Sure...in the way of a caricature. Do you have to "overpower" your wife for her to love you? Granted, it's about what I would expect a book titled Why I Disagree With All 5 Points of Calvinism.

Let's look at another definition of total depravity by a very reliable source:

[quote author=Westminster Confession]?Man, by his fall Into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.?[/quote]

Do you disagree with this statement?
[/quote]

that's a trapping statement.  Yes....I agree that a man cannot save himself from hell....and cannot keep himself from sinning.  However, I do not believe that God forces repentance on us neither.  We change our own minds about how we see things.  God calls to us...and talks to our hearts....and our minds...but He doesn't force the choice on us....He STRONGLY suggests that we make the right choice thou and leads us to the right choice....but does not make us choose it.

 

[FSSL]

So your God is a Strongly Suggesting God, not a Sovereign God.

Does he strongly suggest dead corpses gain new life? Eph 2.4-6

 

[Bo]

So your God is a Strongly Suggesting God, not a Sovereign God.

Does he strongly suggest dead corpses gain new life? Eph 2.4-6

Sovereign means "1.a supreme ruler, especially a monarch.  1.possessing supreme or ultimate power: "
so yes...God is sovereign...but that doesn't mean He practices mind control on us. 

I have never once said that He didn't have the power to control our minds....I just stated the obvious that He doesn't do it.....

and as far as Eph 2:4-6  that is not referring at all to actual physically dead people.....its showing the difference between lost and saved people.....


im the novice....???

 

[FSSL]

Yes. It is speaking of spiritually dead people. It takes a Sovereign God to bring them to life.

Do spiritually dead people raise themselves up to spiritual life?

 

[Bo]

Yes. It is speaking of spiritually dead people. It takes a Sovereign God to bring them to life.

Do spiritually dead people raise themselves up to spiritual life?

no...of course not...

God does all the saving.....He has extended the offer and the gift....we just choose weather or not to accept it...not very complicated when you read the scripture

 

[FSSL]

The problem is that you don't believe what you just wrote. You said above that God does not control the mind of man... He is merely a strong suggestor.

 

[Bo]

The problem is that you don't believe what you just wrote. You said above that God does not control man... He is merely a strong suggestor.

you make no sense....

God chooses to let man decide.....but He does call to us and continually offer the free gift...but does not force us to take it.

Supposed you seen a homeless man.....and you went to him and offered him food.  Now you have extended the offer....its up to him to take it. 

Only difference is that God CAN force us to take it...and you cannot force the homeless man to take it....

yet....God gave us free will....and desires a true relationship other than a self manifested love He forced us to have for Him...so He lets us decide to come to Him on our own...

its really amazing that there are people that actually believe that God forces all of our decision making......

it really doesn't get to me none thou....its just a twisted man that preyed upon those that didn't have much sense and gained followers (though he was probably intelligent) by feeding people he knew to be foolish bull jive doctrine.....

its really REALLY amazing to me.....its extremely hard to believe sometimes

 

[FSSL]

We are talking about a spiritually dead person, not a homeless man cleaning himself up.

Spiritually dead people cannot and do not accept the things of God unless God miraculously gives them new life. It is only then that man can, and most certainly will repent.

 

[FSSL]

The problem is that you don't believe what you just wrote. You said above that God does not control man... He is merely a strong suggestor.

you make no sense....

God chooses to let man decide.....but He does call to us and continually offer the free gift...but does not force us to take it.

Supposed you seen a homeless man.....and you went to him and offered him food.  Now you have extended the offer....its up to him to take it. 

Only difference is that God CAN force us to take it...and you cannot force the homeless man to take it....

yet....God gave us free will....and desires a true relationship other than a self manifested love He forced us to have for Him...so He lets us decide to come to Him on our own...

its really amazing that there are people that actually believe that God forces all of our decision making......

it really doesn't get to me none thou....its just a twisted man that preyed upon those that didn't have much sense and gained followers (though he was probably intelligent) by feeding people he knew to be foolish bull jive doctrine.....

its really REALLY amazing to me.....its extremely hard to believe sometimes

You ignore Scripture for your own analogy.

 

[Bo]

We are talking about a spiritually dead person, not a homeless man cleaning himself up.

Spiritually dead people cannot and do not accept the things of God unless God miraculously gives them new life. It is only then that man can, and most certainly will repent.

God does give them new life!!!  I agree with you!!!  I really do. 

But they have to accept Him and believe on Jesus Christ.....

how come the bible tells us to seek first the kingdom of God?  why...by what you believe....no need for us to seek it....if he wants us to find it we will.....if not...we wont....so Jesus must have been talking nonsense....

or is it you talking the nonsense?

 

[FSSL]

We are talking about a spiritually dead person, not a homeless man cleaning himself up.

Spiritually dead people cannot and do not accept the things of God unless God miraculously gives them new life. It is only then that man can, and most certainly will repent.

God does give them new life!!!  I agree with you!!!  I really do. 

But....

The word "but" undermines your point. All throughout this discussion you ignore Scripture in favor of your own understanding and analogies.

You dismiss the idea that God actually directs the heart of the king. You prefer to think of man's condition as a homeless man rather than actually spiritually dead.

No one seeks God (Ro 3). Why not? Spiritually dead people have no desire to seek God.

 

[Bo]

We are talking about a spiritually dead person, not a homeless man cleaning himself up.

Spiritually dead people cannot and do not accept the things of God unless God miraculously gives them new life. It is only then that man can, and most certainly will repent.

God does give them new life!!!  I agree with you!!!  I really do. 

But....

The word "but" undermines your point. All throughout this discussion you ignore Scripture in favor of your own understanding and analogies.

You dismiss the idea that God actually directs the heart of the king. You prefer to think of man's condition as a homeless man rather than actually spiritually dead.

No one seeks God (Ro 3). Why not? Spiritually dead people have no desire to seek God.

No.....im sure God did direct the heart of the king..

giving direction is not controlling....He has the holy spirit to direct us everyday..but the choice we make is up to us....

God could come to any of us (and does thru the holy spirit) and say "hey buddy,  believe on Jesus Christ.....you will have eternal life and not have to suffer hell!"  and if we say...."nah....I don't believe in that stuff" or we say "yes....I know Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins!!! and I accept Him as my Lord and Saviour!"  that is OUR decision....

He did direct our hearts...and led us to accept Him...but He doesn't accept Him for use...we have to do that